Coolant leak

dingo · Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 7:44 pm Post subject: Coolant leak

'84 Westy : I am guessing this is the classic scenario that i have read about....filled up with coolant, and started her up....pretty big leak right at the gasket between head and block.

What are the causes of this type of leak and what are my options ?? i.e. best-case and worst-case scenarios ??

(186k on the clock, compression good all around, no sign of water in oil)

Thanks
Dingo

earthmuffin · Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 8:03 pm Post subject:

www.vanagon.com
Click 'problems' then click 'head leaks'.

There is a whole wealth of Vanagon knowledge there.
_________________
This thread SUCKS!!!

weinerwagen · Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 5:18 am Post subject:

Common issues. Pull the head, clean things up, re install the head as long as its not cracked or burnt.

Don't get sucked into buying aftermarket heads unless you are going to rebuilt things...

actually a pretty simple, albeit timely, issue that can be resolved.
_________________
Retired attorney--Tort King.

dingo · Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 11:46 am Post subject:

Thanks. I will pull the head and take a look at the surface....

dingo · Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2004 9:35 am Post subject:

OK, i pulled the head : first of all the cylinders came out with it, totally crusted on like barnacles...the gasket was completely and utterly shot.

Also, in the process of me tapping the head out with piece of wood, a two inch section of the lip where the valve cover gasket goes broke off...im guessing i can JB weld this back on ??

...both chambers have a crack connecting the inlet and exhaust valve. Surprisingly, they had both shown decent compression (120 or so psi)

The surface that meets the gasket is also totally crusty, rusty with hard white crystalline crap on it. I assume this is normal, although quite strange to an air-cool-head like myself. How do I get this mating surface back to usable quality ? or do i toss the whole head as far as i can ??

I am enjoying the learning process

Dylan

weinerwagen · Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2004 12:16 pm Post subject:

What you are seeing is the end results of bad weak and ineffective anti freeze. I'd buy a new head, or at least, get a used one not damaged...

you can have someone alum weld that chip back on, but the big issue is going to get the jugs back on over the piston, that can be a pain,

if you re use that head, have a shop go thru it, put in seats and guides.
get a gasket set, clean all the surfaces and re install it.

use good anti freeze
_________________
Retired attorney--Tort King.

dingo · Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 4:13 pm Post subject:

Ok, have replacement head and new gasket...Now the question: how to get the cylinders #3,#4 back on their respective pistons. I have done this on air-cooled before, but a bit puzzled how this will work on this Wasser. I looked at several different types of piston-ring compressors, but wasnt sure what the best tool is, nor how to go about getting them on.

Any advice, suggestions, welcomed

Thanks
Dylan

wayoutjake · Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 4:38 pm Post subject:

Holy Cow...
I had the same problem and am doing the same thing right now...
Replacing the head gasket that is...
I read alot about it, searched the Vanagon list archives etc...
Which is why I made sure NOT to pull the cyls off with the head!
It is supposed to be very difficult to get the pistons back in with the engine in the car... It IS possible though!

I would search the Vanagon list archives for ways to get the cyls / pistons back together.
I wound some great pages online about the head job... check 'em out if you want:

http://members.fortunecity.com/davebaker1/westy/id44.htm

http://gerry.vanagon.com/files/technical/HeadGasketProcedure/

http://www.benplace.com/head.htm

http://www.vanagon.com/problems/head-leaks.html

http://gerry.vanagon.com/archives/

I have another thread going where I am trying to figure out whether the BLACK rubber ring type gasket is necessary in addition to the flat metal gasket that goes where the cyl sleeve goes into the head. I know that the green one goes into the groove at the top of the cyl sleeve... Confused on this bigtime. If you know please post it here!

Good luck to both of us!
_________________
Jason L
85 GL 2.1

dingo · Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 8:03 pm Post subject:

Cool..glad to know someone else out there has the same puzzled expression as i do...i never did see any black rubber rings, as described in the Bentleys*

Well, regarding the cylinders, its all well and good to say 'dont pull them off', but these were baked on hard, to the point that even when i had them off with the head..it took me several days of PB Blasting and pounding with sticks, hammers and other large objects, before they eventually moved even a tiny bit.

That given, they are now off and need to go back on to their pistons, so the caveat is now moot....and i have to figure out a way, difficult or not.

Thanks for all those links..ill check them out...maybe something more coherent and meaningful than Bentleys, which i find quite lacking for such a thick book

Keep me posted on your progress, and i will do likewise

Dylan

wayoutjake · Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2004 12:25 am Post subject:

Too bad about the cyls being stuck!
Mine wanted to stick too but I hammered those little ears and broke them loose... I got lucky I think.

I swear I have read more than one article online that deals with your situation of having to put the pistons back in the cyls. I hope that you can find those pages.

My quandry about the gaskets is over... The thick black gasket goes at the bottom of the cylendar jug, and the little green one goes into the groove in the top of the piston. Lastly, the flat metal one goes in the pocket that the cyl slips into on the head. Damn. I feel liberated.
If it wasnt 3:30am I would go out there right now and do it! Ive been trying to track down a part that doesnt matter for two days. What a putz!
Tomorrow morning I am hittin' it.
_________________
Jason L
85 GL 2.1

wayoutjake · Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2004 12:16 am Post subject:

Today I got up, had a big cup of coffee, and put the engine back together.
I felt like I was taking an exam.

Tomorrow im gonna flush the pipes, fill her with oil and turn the key...

I took some photos:

http://www.jakerock.com/Gallery/VW%20Head%20Job%20Gallery/pages/rebuild%204.htm

How's yours coming?
_________________
Jason L
85 GL 2.1

dingo · Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2004 8:32 pm Post subject:

Nice pictures...especially the night shots.

well i learned that i have to get the pistons out, then match them to the cylinders and re-fit. Local VW shop showed me the tool they use to remove the clips holding in the pistons...a simple clip-remover type pliers with right-angled head. Looking for a well made version of that right now, since the Kragen set looks like it would last about 10 mins before imploding.

...meanwhile working on air-cooled Bus...distant cousin to the wasser

wayoutjake · Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2004 12:22 am Post subject:

Glad that its just a matter of tools and time to get those pistons back in.

I started her up yesterday and strugled with the valves for a bit.
A fella from the vanagon list suggested that my rods were not seated properly, which is probably the case, cause I ended up backing the adjustment screws out all the way and couldnt rock the rocker with my hand... I guees the pushrods are sticking out too far, caught on the lip of the lifter.

Im gonna go out and try and remidy that in the morning.

I spent the day today trying to bang a seized cv joint off of the axle.
Boy I tried all kinds of ways and means to bang, pound, pull, rip that litttle bastard off of there. Its really not going to come off. Even if it does, im guessing that the splines are screwed up and will just fuse the next poor cv joint that I pound on there forever.

Im gonna call some junkyards, but I am in Kentucky... Might be pretty low on Vanagons here.
The other option is to bite the bullet and enjoy the luxury of getting a set of preassembled brand new axles with CV's and just bolt them back in and be done with it for another few thousand miles. Would be good peace of mind to have new ones I guess, but for the bread that I would save I would clean and repack some used ones in a heartbeat.

I sucked at Vanagons today.
_________________
Jason L
85 GL 2.1

dingo · Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2004 9:21 am Post subject:

There are lots of vanagons/wassers in the junkyards out here in Bay Area...let me know if you want some used CVs and ill see what the prices are like next time i go down to the yard...plus shipping cost too, i guess

wayoutjake · Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 7:59 pm Post subject:

Finally, SUCCESS!

I seated the pushrods correctly, lightly set the adjustment screws, and fired her up... After a minute or so of needing my foot on the gas, and blowing some smoke, she started idling real nice, if a little on the slow side.

Because my CV was fused to the axle, I had to figure that one out. When I went to bed last night, I was set on biting the bullet and ordering two pre assembled axles with CV's from the depot. But, when I got up today I decided to give one or two junkyards a shot. The second scrapyard had a single 84 Vanagon, poor bastard of a used up van...

Some burly, grumpy dude who works at the yard went apeshit, and tore EVERYTHING apart to get the axle off of there... Tore down the whole drivers side rear kit and kabootle to get to it. When I came to pick it up, it still had the spindle attached! Amazing. So, I went home, slapped it on (I'll repack in a few days) and drove her to the gas station!
YEEEHAAA!!!!!

I think I need to set the timing, cause theres alot of hesitation, and low power under 2000 RPM. Im hoping that is what it is anyway. The valves are pretty slack, as I am trying to follow the bob donalds method of valve adjustment. It sounds nice though! Purring.

I tried to fill and burp the coolant, I did a pretty thourough flush days ago.
I got about 2 gallons of coolant in there, and then realized that there is NO way to do this method by myself, cause once the system is full, I gotta run to the front and screw in the bleeder on the radiator...
Anyway... I'll have to grab a buddy to help.

At one point, I was holding the throttle open with my right hand and doing all the coolant filling with my left.... I went for the cap, and it fell down onto my headers. If I let go of the throttle, the coolant was going to rocket out of the expansion tank, and if I didnt get the cap off of the header it was going to melt away! I grabbed the only thing that would do the trick, a thin blue funnel and dug down in there trying to flip the cap off of the header, where I could grab it. I managed to get it before any damage, but that sure was exciting!

Head Gasket Replacement Procedure COMPLETE!

Yours,
Still into Vanagons.
Jason L
85GL Kentucky
_________________
Jason L
85 GL 2.1

dingo · Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 6:52 pm Post subject:

After about 5 mins of trying to remove piston clips, abandoned that whole idea and went back to trying to get the cylinders onto the pistons while there still in there. Fashioned a customized ring-compressor out of sheetmetal and then slowly worked the cylinders on...a little precision and persistance and they went right back...no problem...so i dont know what all the fuss was about in the first place. New gasket on, head on...bla bla...well see if she cranks in the morning !!

sbclayton · Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 8:18 pm Post subject:

Good on ya, Dingo! Wink

I'd often thought about a sheet metal compressor, or spring steel, better yet. Nothing like a little kitchen counter tinkering to keep these beasts running.

Regarding your tagline, lets us hope your Vanagon continues to do so!
_________________
Steve - Tampa Bay Area
Original Owner (12/1990) of
NavDog, a 91 Carat

Enlightenment came when I realized that any time in my life I was having fun, it was somehow connected with owning a Volkswagen.


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