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EJZero1 Samba Member
Joined: June 12, 2004 Posts: 147 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Tue May 24, 2022 4:06 pm Post subject: Rear Pop Out Latch Clearance Problem |
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Having a weird problem with getting my rear passenger pop out to latch close. With a spacer in place, the latch will only close to the point where the latch handle sticks out perpendicular to the side of the bus. At this point, the 2-hole mounting tab on the window frame makes contact with the 3-hole mounting arm on the inside of the bus, preventing it from closing any further.
Note only 1 spacer in place. After these pics, I added a second spacer and was able to get the latch to close completely, but it puts a lot of torque on the mounting tab on the frame.
FWIW, I’ve not heard of needing 2 spacers on the rear pop outs. Common? If not, any other factors I should look at? I did notice the logo on this window is upside down and in the wrong corner. Are there left and right frames?
Thanks for any and all inputs! _________________ ‘60 Kombi, The “Bob Dowell Van” |
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ezcamper Samba Member
Joined: January 10, 2001 Posts: 896 Location: Atlantic Beach, FL
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Posted: Tue May 24, 2022 4:18 pm Post subject: Re: Rear Pop Out Latch Clearance Problem |
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Can the 3 hole part slide farther away from the window? _________________ I make HWE style roof racks, Jim-Dandy racks, SO-33 metal parts, Dormobile racks, HWE style ladders, engine crank start handles, Westy rack tags, Binz tags, Sundial badges, State of California tags, steering lock electrical covers and single / double cab gate latch friction blocks.
instagram is http://instagram.com/bullidriversteelworks |
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EJZero1 Samba Member
Joined: June 12, 2004 Posts: 147 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Tue May 24, 2022 4:27 pm Post subject: Re: Rear Pop Out Latch Clearance Problem |
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ezcamper wrote: |
Can the 3 hole part slide farther away from the window? |
It can, but still doesn’t provide the clearance from the window frame tab. I’ve tried this and any number of adjustment combinations here and at the slotted mounting holes on that frame tab. Pretty perplexing… _________________ ‘60 Kombi, The “Bob Dowell Van” |
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EJZero1 Samba Member
Joined: June 12, 2004 Posts: 147 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Tue May 24, 2022 4:49 pm Post subject: Re: Rear Pop Out Latch Clearance Problem |
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For comparison’s sake, here are pics of the rear cargo door pop out latch from similar perspectives. Note the clearance between the mounting window tab and the 3-hole mounting arm on this latch, which closes perfectly.
_________________ ‘60 Kombi, The “Bob Dowell Van” |
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hitest Samba Member
Joined: September 30, 2008 Posts: 10296 Location: Prime Meridian, ID
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Posted: Tue May 24, 2022 8:29 pm Post subject: Re: Rear Pop Out Latch Clearance Problem |
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I see two things going on- and this is much better than what you described on FB. Based on what I can see- the second window's latch tab is bent back- beyond 90 degrees, or at least further back than the tab on the problem window. Further, the two screws are tightened with the latch further away from the glass (and seal) than on the problem window.
I know you've tried all combos- but could it be that the latch can be fastened further away from the glass- toward the tip of the mounting tab?
Slip a shim in there to prevent the screw tightening from walking the latch further toward the glass if you know what I mean. _________________
EverettB wrote: |
I wonder what the nut looks like.
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'62 L390 151, '62 L469 117, '63 L380 113, '64 L87 311, '65 L512 265, '65 L31 SO-42, '66 L360 251, '68 L30k 141, '71 L12 113, '74 ORG 181
FU#5 |
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BonTonRoulet Samba Member
Joined: September 29, 2020 Posts: 356 Location: Mississippi
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Posted: Tue May 24, 2022 9:08 pm Post subject: Re: Rear Pop Out Latch Clearance Problem |
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I imagine things would change, quite perhaps for the better, if you firstly fitted the "outer" pop out window seal that fits in the hole of the chassis where your pop out window fits. _________________ Never argue with an Idiot. They'll only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience. |
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NUTSFORBUSES Samba Member
Joined: December 08, 2016 Posts: 555 Location: I don't recognize it anymore
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Posted: Tue May 24, 2022 9:40 pm Post subject: Re: Rear Pop Out Latch Clearance Problem |
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BonTonRoulet wrote: |
I imagine things would change, quite perhaps for the better, if you firstly fitted the "outer" pop out window seal that fits in the hole of the chassis where your pop out window fits. |
I think You are correct.
Your seals are rotted, window is busted. See IF the window curves in or outward, that would mean the frame is not at its full spread.
A little can make a big difference. Most frames also bend at the latch when closing the latch, so a seal can make all the diff. pushing the window outward from the latch. _________________ kaiser kills kids.com
Last edited by NUTSFORBUSES on Wed May 25, 2022 12:47 am; edited 1 time in total |
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BonTonRoulet Samba Member
Joined: September 29, 2020 Posts: 356 Location: Mississippi
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Posted: Tue May 24, 2022 10:07 pm Post subject: Re: Rear Pop Out Latch Clearance Problem |
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Actually, technically, it would be the "inner" pop out seal I was thinking of that fits in the chassis. The "outer" pop out seal would be around the perimeter of the pop out window frame itself. Both are more than likely critical in making the latches work correctly as designed. _________________ Never argue with an Idiot. They'll only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience. |
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EJZero1 Samba Member
Joined: June 12, 2004 Posts: 147 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Wed May 25, 2022 6:11 am Post subject: Re: Rear Pop Out Latch Clearance Problem |
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Appreciate all the inputs. Seems the consensus might be the idea that replacing the seals would aid in the correct fitment of the latches. Must admit, I hadn’t considered how new seals might factor in, but it does make a lot of sense!
New pop out seals are most certainly on the “do list”. Was just tinkering with the latches in between other major mechanical projects when I came across this issue.
Thanks again for the inputs everyone! This group is awesome! _________________ ‘60 Kombi, The “Bob Dowell Van” |
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Clara Samba Member
Joined: June 14, 2003 Posts: 12383
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Posted: Wed May 25, 2022 7:20 am Post subject: Re: Rear Pop Out Latch Clearance Problem |
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BonTonRoulet wrote: |
Actually, technically, it would be the "inner" pop out seal I was thinking of that fits in the chassis. The "outer" pop out seal would be around the perimeter of the pop out window frame itself. Both are more than likely critical in making the latches work correctly as designed. |
So, the inner seal is outside the outer seal?
pop outs have three seals, from in to out:
-between glass and frame
-out side of frame
-on body (outside of frame)
I find that having a crunchy middle seal generally allows the window to open easier. Not sure that adding a seal would help the opening/closing.
Not sure that is helpful.
Did you try swapping latches from another window? That would help identify whether the problem was the latch or the rest . _________________ The Obsolete Air-Cooled Documentation Project http://oacdp.org/ |
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jonny1309 Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2005 Posts: 680 Location: Oside
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Posted: Wed May 25, 2022 8:06 am Post subject: Re: Rear Pop Out Latch Clearance Problem |
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Install the seal that goes on the body and your latches should close. This seal keeps the two arms of the latch slightly separated which will allow the latch to close. _________________ Jonny
Barndoor Mafia wrote: |
Add a cop mustache, some cholo shades and a Doyers cap to the guy in the suit .......... Tocayo. |
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kiss my ass Tom....I'm without centercaps right now. |
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nothin' wrong with: Nose down - Ass up!! |
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My tailbone still hurts like hell. |
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EJZero1 Samba Member
Joined: June 12, 2004 Posts: 147 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Wed May 25, 2022 8:35 am Post subject: Re: Rear Pop Out Latch Clearance Problem |
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[quote="Clara"]
BonTonRoulet wrote: |
Did you try swapping latches from another window? That would help identify whether the problem was the latch or the rest . |
Actually, I did try different latches. It was in doing this that I found that the 3-hole arms come in different lengths. I had got my hands on a bagful of spoon latch odds and ends and had inadvertently assembled a long spoon with the wrong 3-hole arm. All long spoons now have the same size arm. Looks like the longer arm actually goes with the smaller latch for the front cargo door.
Still waiting on a pop out frame to complete the set of 6. At that point I’ll begin the arduous process of replacing all of the seals. Good times, from what I’ve seen and read!
Thanks again for all of the great inputs. _________________ ‘60 Kombi, The “Bob Dowell Van” |
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BonTonRoulet Samba Member
Joined: September 29, 2020 Posts: 356 Location: Mississippi
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Posted: Wed May 25, 2022 8:37 am Post subject: Re: Rear Pop Out Latch Clearance Problem |
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Clara wrote: |
BonTonRoulet wrote: |
Actually, technically, it would be the "inner" pop out seal I was thinking of that fits in the chassis. The "outer" pop out seal would be around the perimeter of the pop out window frame itself. Both are more than likely critical in making the latches work correctly as designed. |
So, the inner seal is outside the outer seal?
pop outs have three seals, from in to out:
-between glass and frame
-out side of frame
-on body (outside of frame)
I find that having a crunchy middle seal generally allows the window to open easier. Not sure that adding a seal would help the opening/closing.
Not sure that is helpful.
Did you try swapping latches from another window? That would help identify whether the problem was the latch or the rest . |
Yeah, well, take up the whole "inner" and "outer" nomenclature up with the various vendors such as West Coast Metric, Wolfsburg West....any of them where these particular seals are commonly sourced before you order the wrong parts. Sometimes the vendors might even depict a diagram and if you're really lucky a diagram of the cross section of the particular seal. The "inner" seal would be inboard of the pop out window, would it not? Conversely, the "outer" seal would be outboard of the "inner" seal, would it not?
I'm not familiar with the "middle seal". I imagine a "crunchy" one is past due for replacement if it's actually supposed to seal something.
If you can't see where a pop out window latch arm would interfere with the welded latch tab on the pop out window frame because the window/window frame itself is too close to the chassis where it would never reside with the proper "inner" seal installed in the chassis around the opening for the window, then by all means start swapping some latches around. See where that gets you. Then try using all the components that are supposed to be in the system and see where that gets you.
My engine won't start or run!
Well, where are your spark plug wires?
Meh, I didn't think I needed them. _________________ Never argue with an Idiot. They'll only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience. |
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BonTonRoulet Samba Member
Joined: September 29, 2020 Posts: 356 Location: Mississippi
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Posted: Wed May 25, 2022 10:13 am Post subject: Re: Rear Pop Out Latch Clearance Problem |
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EJZero1 wrote: |
Clara wrote: |
Did you try swapping latches from another window? That would help identify whether the problem was the latch or the rest . |
Actually, I did try different latches. It was in doing this that I found that the 3-hole arms come in different lengths. I had got my hands on a bagful of spoon latch odds and ends and had inadvertently assembled a long spoon with the wrong 3-hole arm. All long spoons now have the same size arm. Looks like the longer arm actually goes with the smaller latch for the front cargo door.
Still waiting on a pop out frame to complete the set of 6. At that point I’ll begin the arduous process of replacing all of the seals. Good times, from what I’ve seen and read!
Thanks again for all of the great inputs. |
Fixed that for you. I never wrote that. Needed "Clarafication".
All bets are OFF if you swapped up components in the actual latch itself! _________________ Never argue with an Idiot. They'll only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience. |
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EJZero1 Samba Member
Joined: June 12, 2004 Posts: 147 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Wed May 25, 2022 2:15 pm Post subject: Re: Rear Pop Out Latch Clearance Problem |
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BonTonRoulet wrote: |
My engine won't start or run!
Well, where are your spark plug wires?
Meh, I didn't think I needed them. |
Friggin’ classic, and admittedly so applicable in my case… _________________ ‘60 Kombi, The “Bob Dowell Van” |
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BonTonRoulet Samba Member
Joined: September 29, 2020 Posts: 356 Location: Mississippi
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Posted: Wed May 25, 2022 3:36 pm Post subject: Re: Rear Pop Out Latch Clearance Problem |
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EJZero1 wrote: |
BonTonRoulet wrote: |
My engine won't start or run!
Well, where are your spark plug wires?
Meh, I didn't think I needed them. |
Friggin’ classic, and admittedly so applicable in my case… |
Not a personal dig on you my friend, just illustrating my sentence prior to that to reiterate for a "system" to actually function as it should, it needs all the components of the "system" as designed. Then if it doesn't work from there you troubleshoot the issue. Fit some new seals and follow up with us. The whole point is for all of us to learn something around here.
As GM used to say: "There are no unnecessary parts." _________________ Never argue with an Idiot. They'll only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.
Last edited by BonTonRoulet on Wed May 25, 2022 3:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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NUTSFORBUSES Samba Member
Joined: December 08, 2016 Posts: 555 Location: I don't recognize it anymore
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Posted: Wed May 25, 2022 3:38 pm Post subject: Re: Rear Pop Out Latch Clearance Problem |
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To simplify:
A thick U shape seal goes on the Body, Then
A Flapper seal goes in the channel around the window frame and touches the U shape, Then
Another U type seal goes around the glass edge INSIDE the window frame.
NOT having the first TWO seals will upset what you are trying to do here, and can stop the latch from reaching its destination.
The latch is actually trying to squish the rubber seals together holding the window outward to GET A weather seal. You maybe going metal to metal w/o a buffer, Thus using the latch as it was NOT designed. Latches often break when the seals are brittle and hard.
(I just did a dozen of these) _________________ kaiser kills kids.com |
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EJZero1 Samba Member
Joined: June 12, 2004 Posts: 147 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Wed May 25, 2022 5:41 pm Post subject: Re: Rear Pop Out Latch Clearance Problem |
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BonTonRoulet wrote: |
EJZero1 wrote: |
BonTonRoulet wrote: |
My engine won't start or run!
Well, where are your spark plug wires?
Meh, I didn't think I needed them. |
Friggin’ classic, and admittedly so applicable in my case… |
Not a personal dig on you my friend, just illustrating my sentence prior to that to reiterate for a "system" to actually function as it should, it needs all the components of the "system" as designed. Then if it doesn't work from there you troubleshoot the issue. Fit some new seals and follow up with us. The whole point is for all of us to learn something around here.
As GM used to say: "There are no unnecessary parts." |
No offense taken at all, Sir! I got quite a kick out of the simplicity and applicability of the wording!
I’m all about sharing my experiences, good and not so good, so everyone can learn something! _________________ ‘60 Kombi, The “Bob Dowell Van” |
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EJZero1 Samba Member
Joined: June 12, 2004 Posts: 147 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Wed May 25, 2022 5:47 pm Post subject: Re: Rear Pop Out Latch Clearance Problem |
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NUTSFORBUSES wrote: |
To simplify:
A thick U shape seal goes on the Body, Then
A Flapper seal goes in the channel around the window frame and touches the U shape, Then
Another U type seal goes around the glass edge INSIDE the window frame.
NOT having the first TWO seals will upset what you are trying to do here, and can stop the latch from reaching its destination.
The latch is actually trying to squish the rubber seals together holding the window outward to GET A weather seal. You maybe going metal to metal w/o a buffer, Thus using the latch as it was NOT designed. Latches often break when the seals are brittle and hard.
(I just did a dozen of these) |
I agree with your “break down” of the applicable seals in play on the pop out windows. As someone here already pointed out, ensuring I order all of these correct seals from one or another of our vendors may not necessarily be an easy task. For example, WW’s web site offering in this area doesn’t seem to match what I think I’m looking for. At any rate, will soon be verifying and ordering the 3 applicable seals per window, _________________ ‘60 Kombi, The “Bob Dowell Van” |
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NUTSFORBUSES Samba Member
Joined: December 08, 2016 Posts: 555 Location: I don't recognize it anymore
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Posted: Thu May 26, 2022 2:29 am Post subject: Re: Rear Pop Out Latch Clearance Problem |
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Buy a gallon of Simple Green, a plastic container big enough to fit the frame/(s), soak it 24 hrs or longer. Your seals will peel right off w/o glass breakage or scraping the channels. _________________ kaiser kills kids.com |
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