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New to Things,couple ???s...engine tin,oilpumps,rebuild kits
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87BOSS351C
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2004 10:44 am    Post subject: New to Things,couple ???s...engine tin,oilpumps,rebuild kits Reply with quote

My fiance recently picked up her dream car, a yellow 1973 Thing. We are going to do a full mechanical rebuild and resortation to mostly original. Everything on it is original with about 50,000 miles, but it has sat for a long time. I have a lot of mechanical ability and experiance but I have never delt with an air cooled VW before (mostly deal with GM and Ford V8 cars and trucks but my first car was an '82 diesel Rabbit Pick up truck).

Anyway, I have a couple of basic questions at this point.

Engine tin: Is this all Thing specific? After getting the engine out it looks like we will at least need the rear tin and the flywheel tin. I have found sources for these cheap but they are listed for beetles. Will they work? The rest of the tin looks serviceable.

Oil Pump: are the pumps with the attached filter at least better than the stock screen? Engine will be close to stock (1641cc only change) but I really would feel better with a spin on oil filter. Long, dependable engine life is the goal, but don't know if a decent VW machine shop is around my area (Mid-Michigan) for a full flow conversion.

Engine Kits: As stated the engine will be close to stock (heads, carb, dist, stroke) but we are considering the JC Whitney 1641cc engine kit. Price is a consideration here. Not looking to build a hot rod, but this kit looks good since it is only about $30 more than a standard kit. I don't feel that I have to have all top of the line name brand stuff as I made this mistake on my Mustang engine and have the credit card bills to prove it! What are everyone's thoughts on this kit? Not a daily driver, just a cruiser.


I am largely still in the research stage of this project and have several books coming on VW engine rebuilding. Mechanicals are the first stage in the restoration with Body work following in the winter of '05 (have to build the shop first Very Happy ).

Thanks,

Patrick
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TimGud
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2004 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 1641 kits have thin cylinder walls which in a heavy thing can cause shorter engine life from the cylinders overheating and warping.
The best filter set up is to have the case tapped for full flow and have hydraulic lines made up for a filter mounted under the tin so the heatfrom the filter doesn't preheat your cooling air.
As long as the rear tin is for an offset doghouse cooler it doesn't matter if it is off of a beetle or a thing. The rear tin (upright piece of tin) off of a bus will not fit though.
Are you sure the engine needs rebuilt after only 50,000 miles/ May just need a good tune up. Welcome to a small part of the VW group!
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Buckly
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2004 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CB preformance makes a oil pump with filter that pumps 100% of the oil through the pump. I've been told that not all pump/filters do, and to avoid cheap ones. I agree with tim about the 87mm piston/cylinder, to increase engine life it's best to use 85mm P&C's. Welcome and have fun.
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87BOSS351C
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the advice on the engine kit. I'll stick with stock bore. Is it possible to just Hone the jugs and re ring the stock pistons if everything is in good shape (I'll mic the bores for taper) or should I go ahead and get new ones? The car has sat for quite a few years with the top of the carb open and there is a lot of crap down the intake. I don't like taking chances on the condition of my engines.

I understand that the full flow mod is the best, but I doubt there is anyone local to me that would/could do the machine work for that (any chance of doing it at Home????) I'll look into the CB Performance pump/filter as it looks like that or the stock screen at this point.

Thanks for the info on the engine tin, very helpful to know.

I love internet car forums, they're where the most helpful people seem to hang out.

Patrick
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Buckly
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've honed and reringed before with no problems (did it in current car), They were low mile pistons and cylinders. However,Everyone tells me why take the chance, new P&C's are only About $100.00 Bucks. Of course your odds are better with new, but if the wallet has any say, and the P&C's look good, go for it. All the crap can be cleaned out and watch for rust and debris throughout. When your jugs are off I think you can check your side clearence between rods and crank. if you need the limits let me know I can look them up for you, until you get your book. I would also check endplay, If things look good you may not have to split the case. New heads are just over $100 bucks as well, but wiggle things around and push on the springs, you may be able to use your current ones for another 50,000 miles. Beware, sucking valves is common. check out the clutch too. I stand on my pressure plate to see how stiff the springs are and messure the thickness of the clutch plate, check book for limit. check the flywheel for grooves, warp and of course heat(blue or purle coloration). replace oilcooler seals, and any other seals or gaskets where it looked like it might have been leaking or wet at one time. Check your push rod tubes, they are a likely place to leak. twist out the oilpressure relief valves, inspect, clean and put them back. you can use a fine grit sand paper or emery to clean them and they'er little holes.

I could go on and on, so I won't. you have mechanical experience so you'll figure things out really fast. good luck
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germansupplyscott
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

87BOSS351C wrote:
Is it possible to just Hone the jugs and re ring the stock pistons if everything is in good shape

Patrick


i restored a 74 thing for my wife, too. it also had sat, and had about 45k miles on it.

i would say yes, it is possible. it all depends on the condition of the internal engine parts. my thing project sat for at least 6 years. i took the engine apart, but what i found was everything was nearly perfect, very little wear on anything. i replaced the bearings, honed cylinders, new Deves piston rings, and full rebuild on the heads. the engine remained completely stock. i had the engine balanced, refinished the tin and rebuilt the carb. flywheel was resurfaced and new clutch. new exhaust, a sticky point for a thing, but that is another topic... the engine part of the restoration cost very little, maybe about 600 $CAD. the original engine parts are very good, much better than the JC whitney replacements, so if you can "freshen" the engine and get another 25k miles, why not do it that way? that was my thinking, anyhow. the rebuilt engine runs beautifully. you may find that the most problematic areas are the carb and distibutor, take the time to rebuild/recondition both of these carefully. they will have suffered from the long sitting period.

have fun with the new project. this is the first winter in three years that i will not have my thing project to keep me busy - mine is done now! what am i going to do with all those long winter evenings?
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TimGud
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2004 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[

i will not have my thing project to keep me busy - mine is done now! what am i going to do with all those long winter evenings?[/quote]

Now it's time to make small improvements or add accesories to it!
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germansupplyscott
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2004 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tim,

yeah, small improvements. the last mile of a marathon is the hardest...

there is always room for improvement. i need to get a spare that matches the other 4 tires. i need tunes! ooh, that is a biggie. i have no radio at all, and it is hard to cruise around in a car without music...i have to get new visors, mine are becoming a bag of foam dust.

but my big project for this winter will be to make some tooling so i can reproduce this:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


my self-made reproduction '74 thing only exhaust. i have the muffler construction down pat, it is relatively easy to produce using a german beetle muffler as the basis, but the tailpipes are proving very difficult, i need a mandrel bending machine that can make two small radius bends that are very close together, and i have yet to find a shop that has the right tooling. the tailpipes in the photos are original ones. this muffler is closer to the original than the one GMW sells. theirs has a slip-joint on the tailpies instead of a flanged connection.
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Buckly
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2004 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very nice muffler. I just bought a remanufactured, not for german motor works, for $200, From Mike Basso. He just got in the tail pipes. not flanged. how much were you going to sell them for.
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Miguel Arroyo
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2004 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been using one of the filter pump arragements on my 1600 SP Beetle and it works great. All of the oil goes thru the filter before going to the engine. I removed the oil screen after installing it.

Some individuals have stated that the filter could pick up heat from the exhaust (is close to it). But my engine runs ok even in hot Miami, FL.

Good luck in your restoration.
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Buckly
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2004 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been thinking about adding one to my engine and have wondered about the heat and exhust. What Kind are you using.
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87BOSS351C
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for all the advice, everyone!

I finally got the engine tore down to the shortblock, and it looks like I will need all the tin except for the main fan housing piece, and have to put new pistons/jugs in. 2 pistons are scuffed on the top side of the skirt. The adjusters on the rocker arms are all wore in different patterns from each other and most of the valve tips are wore concave. Lots of oil sludge too. I don't think this engine was maintained very well. On the plus side there appears to be no major damage and the heads and case appear so far to not be cracked.

I think for the piston/cylinder set I'll go with Mahle since they are OE and have a good name in the american V8 racing scene. Any advice as to bearing brands?

Thanks,

Patrick
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germansupplyscott
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

87BOSS351C wrote:
I think for the piston/cylinder set I'll go with Mahle since they are OE and have a good name in the american V8 racing scene. Any advice as to bearing brands?


patrick,

kolbenschmidt or glyco for bearings, they are the OE supplier. all the glyco you find will be old stock, KS are still making bearings in Germany. Any mahle bearings you get will be brazilian, they are fine but i prefer german. Kolbenschmidt P&C kits are available new in stock size, and if you are going stock i would say go KS. the german P&C's are superior. i see KS sets on ebay all the time for about 125.00. all the mahle P&C's are brazil now. again, they are fine, but i prefer the german parts, there IS a difference.
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Last edited by germansupplyscott on Wed Nov 10, 2004 7:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Buckly
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Patrick, Whats wrong with your engine Tin? I can't remember seeing tin thats so rusty it can't be cleaned up and repainted. I have seen some tin thats been cracked.

By chance did you check your end play, and I think once the jugs are off you can check your side clearance on the connecting rods. If the tolerance's are to far off It may be a waste of money to put the new jugs on. You could always clean the old ones, sand the scuff's and rering them. This is a temperary fix until you can do a full engine rebuild. I just did this myself, just to get by until i finish my rebuild. Although I must add, I've done alot of crazy things with VW engine's, and in doing so learned alot, like what an engine can take and what not to do in the future. For me, these are the lessons I remember the best, Because they probably cost me money and left me stranded.
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87BOSS351C
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 6:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Again thanks for the advice everyone. Just to clarify, this isn't a "just to get by" rebuild. The thing is undergoing a full restoration/rebuild. There is no floor board left on the drivers side! I'm just starting with the engine as that is easy to do in our current garage. The body work has to wait until we get the shop built next summer.

I got the case split over the weekend. Side clearance on all rods is 0.011" which is within spec I believe. The main bearings show definate wear from dirty oil but the crank journals are fine.

Anybody know what the measurement should be for the cam lobes (lift + base circle)? The cam looks ok but I want to make sure it specs out right.


Thanks,

Patrick
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87BOSS351C
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh yeah, the engine tin is rotted out. Rusted clean through, most pieces right around the mounting screws. Sat too long with mouse nests and leaves and crap packed in there to hold moisture. Everything rusts in Michigan Sad
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germansupplyscott
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

87BOSS351C wrote:
Everything rusts in Michigan Sad


i hear you on that one.

do you ever get to the MVVC show? it is the first show in the northeast every spring, held in ypsilanti. we'll be there next year with our 74 thing. this year we had just finished her a few days before and didn't want to take her on such a long trip with no shakedown time beforehand.

i have NOS stock cams i can measure, but the cam will show obvious wear if it is bad, and type 1 cams are good for not going bad, epsecially the OE VW ones. you should have marked the lifters for location ing the case and make sure they still have some rocker to them. also, if you do not have it, get the wilson book "how to rebuild your aircooled VW enigne".
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Buckly
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My bad. I am also in the middle of a rebuild. I was wondering why the cam I took out of the engine is Marked +3 (asuming thats refering to lifter open time) and my new cam has no number at all.
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TimGud
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The +3 is referring to the cam gear size.
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87BOSS351C
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 6:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scott,

I've never been to a VW show before, but I may try to check out that show in Ypsilanti next spring. A VW swap meet would be very helpful for parts. I live up in Midland where the Michigan Antique Festival is held 3 times per summer. A large component of the Festival is a car parts swap meet, but mostly Chevy stuff (I'm a Ford guy and don't find much there) but sometimes there are some good oddball finds.

I finally found instructions on the Full Flow mod and see that I can do the drilling and tapping myself so I'll go that route instead of the pump/filter combo.

Anybody here replace their own valve guides? Any tips or advice? My hope is to get through this rebuild without going to a machine shop execpt for rebuilding the rods, but vavle guides wouldn't be a big deal to have done. I'm just the type of guy who like to do as much myself as possible.

Thanks
Patrick
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