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01P trans “disengages” under heavy load
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Tool.man
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:45 am    Post subject: 01P trans “disengages” under heavy load Reply with quote

Climbing a long steep grade on a hot afternoon the transmission will suddenly disengage, i.e. there is no power to the wheels. I then coast to the side of the road where I put it in park and allow it to idle for perhaps as long as five minutes and then put it back in drive and take off.

Has anyone experienced this happening?
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2019 7:31 am    Post subject: Re: 01P trans “disengages” under heavy load Reply with quote

Transmission is overheating or is low on fluid. Start reading up on "01P transmission failure" on google.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:38 am    Post subject: Re: 01P trans “disengages” under heavy load Reply with quote

Yep, well known overheating issue. Aftermarket transmission cooler will fix this if tranny is not damaged.

Check Rialta info and all around forums for the recommended cooler and install. Google: transmisison cooler eurovan 01P

I bought mine with a smaller cooler a tranny shop installed for previous owner but it was insufficient and still overheating at times. Use the recommended one to be safe. Careful with the clamp quality for the hoses. Double check the install after a few miles.

Also change tranny fluid ASAP. It goes bad quickly at high heat and no longer does it's job. Valvoline Maxlife synthetic is considered very good, though not officially to VW spec.

Change every 20k from now on for maximum safety.

Having some sort of temp monitor on tranny adds another element of safety, though I've never seen it get even close to hot since installing the recommended cooler.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:49 am    Post subject: Re: 01P trans “disengages” under heavy load Reply with quote

Also: There are a few owners who report that just manually downshifting while climbing will avoid overheating.

Doing that and changing fluid NOW could keep you going without an aftermarket cooler.

I don't care for this solution, the manual shifting is tricky. But some prefer it. At least it will get you down the road.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2019 9:42 am    Post subject: Re: 01P trans “disengages” under heavy load Reply with quote

swsl wrote:
Yep, well known overheating issue. Aftermarket transmission cooler will fix this if tranny is not damaged.

Check Rialta info and all around forums for the recommended cooler and install. Google: transmisison cooler eurovan 01P

I bought mine with a smaller cooler a tranny shop installed for previous owner but it was insufficient and still overheating at times. Use the recommended one to be safe. Careful with the clamp quality for the hoses. Double check the install after a few miles.

Also change tranny fluid ASAP. It goes bad quickly at high heat and no longer does it's job. Valvoline Maxlife synthetic is considered very good, though not officially to VW spec.

Change every 20k from now on for maximum safety.

Having some sort of temp monitor on tranny adds another element of safety, though I've never seen it get even close to hot since installing the recommended cooler.


This. The aftermarket solution prized by the community comes from gowesty.
https://www.gowesty.com/product/automatic/23294/external-cooler-kit-for-automatic-transaxle-

It can be done cheaper if you source the parts yourself, however, its known that most hoses and clamps are of cheap quality. I'll have a full guide with pictures and parts-list up on the websites in a couple of weeks. It's not a difficult installation if you are somewhat mechanically inclined. Shop will probably charge you 2-4 hours of labor.

[/url]
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:54 pm    Post subject: Re: 01P trans “disengages” under heavy load Reply with quote

Forget the cooler. That does nothing. If it did then your EV would have done this since new. Since it has not, then there must be another reason. I suggest that you pull the pan, pull the filter off and break it apart. Look into it and see if there's any goodies trapped up in it. If it looks fine then put a new filter and fluid. Try that first.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 8:35 am    Post subject: Re: 01P trans “disengages” under heavy load Reply with quote

swsl wrote:
Yep, well known overheating issue...

So that I’m clear, you (or anyone) have experienced this exact problem? Do you know what is happening mechanically?

I’m the third owner of this 2000 Rialta. I’ve driven it 15,000 miles. I have a receipt where the first owner had the transmission replaced at 75,000 miles. I purchased the vehicle with the “recommended” cooler and dipstick already installed from the second owner with 100,000 miles.

This vehicle has a twin electric 3-speed, computer-controlled fan with a manual override switch on the dash.

I experienced the described problem on our first foray into the Rocky Mountains. It happened once on what was the worst grade of the trip.

I replaced the filter and all 8+ quarts of transmission fluid with Amsoil full-synthetic VW-approved fluid. I installed the largest cooler I could cram behind the grille. With the potential for over-cooling I installed a 175F thermostat. I installed a temperature gauge with the sensor located at the out-port of the transmission. I designed and installed a quart-a-minute water-mister in front of the grille. I removed the “bra”. With the grille removed and the fan on hi I flushed the transmission cooler, A/C condenser, and radiator with hot, soapy water at the car wash. (BTW, the last two details made a difference in the temperature).

I installed Amsoil’s bypass filter.

On our last trip, climbing out of Salt Lake City headed to Wyoming, driving 60MPH, fan on hi, the mister spraying with temperature gauge hovering around 200F...the transmission “disengaged”.

I have to fix it. Any and all info from those who know this problem would be greatly appreciated.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:04 am    Post subject: Re: 01P trans “disengages” under heavy load Reply with quote

Expected life on these tranmissions is about 250k, but in a Rialta, it could be half that if it hasn't been serviced and driven hard.

Coolers won't help that. Do you know the history well enough to gauge where it is in life cycle?
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:02 am    Post subject: Re: 01P trans “disengages” under heavy load Reply with quote

Abscate wrote:
Expected life on these tranmissions is about 250k, but in a Rialta, it could be half that if it hasn't been serviced and driven hard.

Coolers won't help that. Do you know the history well enough to gauge where it is in life cycle?


As I outlined, the transmission in the vehicle is the second one and it currently has 40,000 miles on it. I have extensive records from both previous owners. Although I haven’t studied those records for transmission service I suspect, based on the size of the stack of receipts, that it has been serviced on a regular basis. I can also say that this 7400LB RV has been driven “hard”. It’s spent a lot of time in mountainous areas. There’s just no other way that this vehicle could be driven under those conditions. That is to say, it’s all it can do to make it up a two mile long 6% grade at 60MPH. 3800RPM in second gear is ordinary.

I have it from a well experienced German VW technician that heat is the main reason for failure in the 01P transmissions. The cooler won’t resolve the problem but it is appropriate.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:36 am    Post subject: Re: 01P trans “disengages” under heavy load Reply with quote

Remember your Rialta transmission has the same guts in it as a MK4 Jetta/Beetle/Golf except for the 4th gear clutch pack and 4 planetary's. So, you are asking the max out of that design (which is an Aisin design). Just take the weight of your Rialta, subtract about 3K lb (the weight of a typical MK4) then think to yourself, if i added that weight onto a 2001 beetle, would the transmission be able to take it?

Then you need to look at this. The main problem with all of these 01(insert letter here) transmissions is the valve body. They wear out (soft cylinders and hardened pistons). So, when they actuate a clutch pack, if there is blow by for that piston the overall pressure to that clutch pack is less. That means, less clamping force and that equates to the clutch pack to start slipping. That friction material is released into the oil and this the oil filter is not really designed to catch all of it. So, you now have a piston working in a cylinder that is lubricated with oil and friction material. Thus compounds the problem.

Best part is that the Rialta just pounds the transmission so hard that you never run into the issue of the clutch pack piston lips getting so hard that, the blow by happens there.

If I had a Rialta, the fluid and filter would be changed every 20K and for a cooler, I'd throw on a thermostat and spec out a much better cooler than what is available. Probably even mount it in a different location.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 7:24 pm    Post subject: Re: 01P trans “disengages” under heavy load Reply with quote

jjvincent wrote:
Remember your Rialta transmission has the same guts in it as a MK4 Jetta/Beetle/Golf except for the 4th gear clutch pack and 4 planetary's. So, you are asking the max out of that design (which is an Aisin design). Just take the weight of your Rialta, subtract about 3K lb (the weight of a typical MK4) then think to yourself, if i added that weight onto a 2001 beetle, would the transmission be able to take it?

Exactly. Shame on Winnebago but I’m stuck. I have to make it work.

jjvincent wrote:
Then you need to look at this. The main problem with all of these 01(insert letter here) transmissions is the valve body.


So, do I need to rebuild the valve body as a first step?

jjvincent wrote:
If I had a Rialta, the fluid and filter would be changed every 20K and for a cooler, I'd throw on a thermostat and spec out a much better cooler than what is available. Probably even mount it in a different location.

It’s been 15,000 miles since a filter and complete oil change and, as I outlined, I have the largest cooler that could be made to fit behind the grille.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 7:28 pm    Post subject: Re: 01P trans “disengages” under heavy load Reply with quote

So, is there anyone who has experienced this exact problem and if so what was done to correct it?
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 5:50 am    Post subject: Re: 01P trans “disengages” under heavy load Reply with quote

Tool.man wrote:

On our last trip, climbing out of Salt Lake City headed to Wyoming, driving 60MPH, fan on hi, the mister spraying with temperature gauge hovering around 200F...the transmission “disengaged”.



You're experiencing the disengagement when the transmission is not running hot...I would first check that the TCU is reading the trans temperature accurately.

If you don't have Ross-Tech VCDS and an OBD-cable, get one -or take your van to a VW repair shop that has one. In the Measuring Blocks function, check the transmission temperature that is detected by the TCU and compare that to the reading off your temperature gauge. Using VCDS, I would also check the torque converter 'slips' measuring block, as well as the input and output shaft speed measuring blocks. You'll have to account for gear ratio, but between those fields, you can determine whether the torque converter is slipping or if specific clutch packs may be slipping.


I would do a bit more leg-work to diagnose the problem in case it may simply be related to a bad temp sensor/ribbon cable; or, whether you need just a rebuilt valve-body, or a rebuilt transmission and valve-body (and torque converter...).
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Bodacious wrote:
Why not just make a custom set of wires with a Y splice in them. Then you could just run one distributor.

I don't think electrickery works that way
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 8:15 am    Post subject: Re: 01P trans “disengages” under heavy load Reply with quote

Another thing to remember is this. If you just unplug the transmission, it will have this:
P
R
N
3
1

What you don't get is:
2
4
Torque Converter Lockup
All automated shifting

If you are losing all drive, then that's why you have to pull the pan and see what's in it and break apart the filter to see if any goodies are inside of it. When my transmission went, it was a mechanical failure and there was no reverse. The filter caught all of the goodies and thus explained what happened.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 8:48 am    Post subject: Re: 01P trans “disengages” under heavy load Reply with quote

jjvincent wrote:

If you are losing all drive, then that's why you have to pull the pan and see what's in it and break apart the filter to see if any goodies are inside of it.


Unless the EV6 solenoid is grounding for some improbable reason...? Still, I think it would be interesting to unplug the transmission and drive it manually using 1st and 3rd gear and see if it disengages after it heats up (i.e. purely mechanical failure as you suggest).
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66brm wrote:
Bodacious wrote:
Why not just make a custom set of wires with a Y splice in them. Then you could just run one distributor.

I don't think electrickery works that way
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 12:44 pm    Post subject: Re: 01P trans “disengages” under heavy load Reply with quote

I appreciate all the good insight.

I've managed to document the timeline of this problem. I hope there is a clue in this that helps establish a logical sequence to the troubleshooting.

January 2016
Purchased 2000 Winnebago Rialta (7400 lb) with 100K miles on the vehicle and 25K miles on the transmission.

Changed trans filter and 8-qts fluid; installed Amsoil full-synthetic VW spec.
Only found "gold dust" in pan.

Added three electronic gauges - engine oil press, engine oil temp, trans oil temp.
Trans oil temp sensor located at out-port of trans.

Installed Amsoil bypass filters for engine oil and trans oil.

August 2016
Leave on first long trip; first trip through mountainous areas.

August 15, 2016
First experience the "disengaging" problem. Engine at 4200 RPM, 50 MPH, and trans in 2nd gear for 10-minutes. Engine oil temp 240F. Trans oil temp 220F. Water temp 190F.
Did NOT manipulate electric fan. Subsequent experience would indicate that the computer probably didn't raise fan speed to "hi".
Pull-off highway and idle in park.
Using VCDS-OBD2 found no codes for engine or trans.
After 20 minutes back on highway with no apparent problem.
Drive additional 1k miles, mostly flat-land with no problem.

Installed larger trans oil cooler with thermostat.
Installed manual controlled water-mist cooling.
Learned to manipulate fan speed.

On each of two or three similar subsequent trips we always encounter the "disengaging" at least once, always under similar road and weather conditions.
The vehicle now has 115k miles.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 12:56 pm    Post subject: Re: 01P trans “disengages” under heavy load Reply with quote

Stripped66 wrote:
...You're experiencing the disengagement when the transmission is not running hot...

You got me. Until I was able to get the temperatures down I always took the "disengaging" to occur at elevated temperatures. I seem to have the temperatures well under control but the problem continues.

I have both the VCDS and VAG. The next long trip won't be for many months but I'll keep the laptop setup to monitor on short trips.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 1:00 pm    Post subject: Re: 01P trans “disengages” under heavy load Reply with quote

There is one question I'm just now pulling from the fog, does this 2000 01P TCU have a feature where it automatically "disengages" under excessive loads?
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:36 pm    Post subject: Re: 01P trans “disengages” under heavy load Reply with quote

Tool.man wrote:
There is one question I'm just now pulling from the fog, does this 2000 01P TCU have a feature where it automatically "disengages" under excessive loads?
Did it do this when it was new or 3 years old? If excessive load disengages the transmission, this would happened it since new, unless it has an internal clock that determines after 19 years of service that it will start that program up.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 1:16 pm    Post subject: Re: 01P trans “disengages” under heavy load Reply with quote

Tool.man wrote:
swsl wrote:
Yep, well known overheating issue...

So that I’m clear, you have experienced this exact problem? Do you know what is happening mechanically?


No and no. It was a generalized answer for problems that seem to be caused by overheating. Most people with transmission overheating issues have not done the basic known preventatives and you gave no indication that you already had nor that you knew what the temp was when it fails.

So your temp appears to be good enough, but it sure seems like an overheating issue if cooling down returns it to normal operation.
Makes sense to watch what the computer is seeing for tranny temp.

Is it possible that limp mode actuation is not right and it's not locking into third correctly? Maybe it was built/rebuilt with an assembly error. I know nothing about automatics, just a wild guess.

And then the temperature it sees would also have to be higher than your aftermarket gauge is showing for it to be entering limp mode.


On the cooling front, you could eliminate the thermostat and bypass filter from the loop for testing. Not all thermostats will offer the same flow perhaps. Eliminating the thermo should get the best flow for cooling.
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Last edited by swsl on Tue Oct 15, 2019 3:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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