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Thu Dec 01, 2005 1:32 pm

RemcoW wrote: It pretty much rusts on all panels around the edges, then?

Would it be advisable to use a good seam seam sealer where possible on every edge (besides just the floor pans) so water/air can't get in?

I'm asking because my body is off the frame so this would be a good time to do this.

Yes, all of them are rusting along the edges. None of them are rusting where the masking tape edge is, wierd. I ended up using Por Patch on both sides of the new pans and everywhere else there were seams.

Thu Dec 01, 2005 2:47 pm

Lee. wrote: Yes, all of them are rusting along the edges. None of them are rusting where the masking tape edge is, wierd. I ended up using Por Patch on both sides of the new pans and everywhere else there were seams.

Maybe masking tape leaves some sort of residue that aids in keeping air out? Maybe you stumbled across a new rust protector: duct tape glue - if we could only bottle it... :)

Thanks for that advice on sealing all edges, not just the pan's edges - that's what I'll do as well.

Sat Dec 24, 2005 10:12 pm

Almost 4 months now and they all (including Rustoleum) are now producing similar results. Snow was sitting on them for almost 2 weeks straight, slowly melting. This may take a little longer than I expected.

One thing I've noticed is that people are knocking Por because of the "3-step process" and the cost involved. Step 1 is a rust dissolver/etcher. Step 2 is a degreaser/cleaner. Step 3 is applying the product. You do not HAVE to do steps 1 & 2. I WOULD do steps 1 & 2 before using ANY of the products unless I could not get to the area. Some of the other manufacturers say to just "wire brush" the area then coat. Well, that to me would be like painting your car over the old paint with no prep. What if there is grease and oil on the part? Why not dissolve the rust (if you can get to it) prior to coating? Seems to me once the rust is gone and then the part is coated, it will hold up much longer.

Here is the current cost for quarts less shipping...

Eastwood $30
Rust Bullet $33
Por-15 $33
Masterseries $25

I used a quart on each side of the pan and chassis.

One thing I would recommend getting is this.

It is so convinent for the hard to reach areas and small parts.

Sat Dec 24, 2005 10:26 pm

As of now if I had to do it all over again, I would buy Masterseries from Chuck. He is in to VW's, answered all the question I had and his product costs a little less. 2 cans of the sprayable version from Eastwood. I would also prep the areas with Por's metal ready and marine cleaner and finish with a chassis coat. I used Por's chassis black. I know Chuck sells one, it probably costs less and will hold up the same.

Mon Dec 26, 2005 12:27 pm

Thanks for the comparisons. I've been a bit conflicted as to which product to buy. So you would recommend MasterSeries for the major work, and the Sprayable Rust encapsulator from Eastwood for the smaller things (like bolts, etc.?)? When you say prep the area using Por's metal ready and marine cleaner, you mean prepping for the paint and not for rust preventative (such as MasterSeries), correct?

Sorry if these are stupid questions, but I've never done anything like this...

Mon Dec 26, 2005 3:08 pm

For years, I've been using Surface Technology's Metalprep 79 and Galvaprep. Metalprep 79 has an acid in it and cleans, etches, and treats oxidized metal. Galvaprep is used next and makes the metal corrosion resistant. A layer of Por-15 could then go over it. One gallon of Metalprep 79 doesn't cost that much.
I brushed Por-15 on the drip rails of two old buses I am restoring and it worked fine. The trick is to have the bare or painted metal clean and scuffed up so the Por-15 will adhere well. The reduction gearboxes I rebuilt and painted with black Por-15 had some small areas where the paint came off like tape due to those areas not having been cleaned enough.
Remember that rust converters like Rust-Mort are not sealers and must be painted over.

Mon Dec 26, 2005 3:59 pm

V.W.Baron wrote: Thanks for the comparisons. I've been a bit conflicted as to which product to buy. So you would recommend MasterSeries for the major work, and the Sprayable Rust encapsulator from Eastwood for the smaller things (like bolts, etc.?)? When you say prep the area using Por's metal ready and marine cleaner, you mean prepping for the paint and not for rust preventative (such as MasterSeries), correct?

Sorry if these are stupid questions, but I've never done anything like this...

Prep the areas before using masterseries (espicially if it's heavily rusted). I know it's a pain to do but it's worth it. I think it will hold up longer. The sprayable rust encapsulator is great for the small stuff and areas like in the rockers.

Same panel with and without the metal ready.

Mon Dec 26, 2005 4:00 pm

Campy wrote: For years, I've been using Surface Technology's Metalprep 79 and Galvaprep. Metalprep 79 has an acid in it and cleans, etches, and treats oxidized metal. Galvaprep is used next and makes the metal corrosion resistant. A layer of Por-15 could then go over it. One gallon of Metalprep 79 doesn't cost that much.
I brushed Por-15 on the drip rails of two old buses I am restoring and it worked fine. The trick is to have the bare or painted metal clean and scuffed up so the Por-15 will adhere well. The reduction gearboxes I rebuilt and painted with black Por-15 had some small areas where the paint came off like tape due to those areas not having been cleaned enough.
Remember that rust converters like Rust-Mort are not sealers and must be painted over.

Well said. I'm sure there may be some better/cheaper prep products than the Por line.

Tue Dec 27, 2005 12:49 pm

Lee is right; the metal should be cleaned and conditioned. Buying a product because the manufacturer claims that you can skip one or two steps to save a little money and time is, in my opinion, a mistake. You should always clean and condition the metal surface.
As I noted earlier, a gallon of metalprep 79 doesn't cost that much. I've had mine for years and I still haven't used it all. I use it on new panels, too, where it is very important to remove the "packing" primer and etch the sheet metal so the paint will stick to it (to make sure the paint really sticks, I scuff up the metal, first, with sandpaper, then use the metalprep 79).

Tue Dec 27, 2005 7:50 pm

The 4 panels that were prepped (regardless of the product) are ALL holding up better than the "one step" panels. It will be interesting in a year or so how they shake out. I bet the prep has a much bigger impact on rust prevention than which product you use.

Wed Dec 28, 2005 12:53 am

It is common sense to clean metal, then remove what rust that you can (wire wheel or sander), even if the only reason is that some of the product might flake off, one day, and expose the rusty metal to air.
The main thing is to have the metal clean and conditioned (not smooth) for good adhesion. This is not a time where you should want to be lazy.

Wed Dec 28, 2005 2:50 am

So what would be a good method for conditioning metal to ensure good adhesion?

Wed Dec 28, 2005 8:11 am

Sooo... As a minimum:

Scrape (wire wheel)
Acid prep of some kind
Degrease
THEN apply whatever product?

I do the wire wheel thing, quick degrease, then just been applying RB. I can see it soak into the worst of the rust in my test. I understand that RB adheres better to rust than clean metal, judging from their heavy-on-marketingspeak website.

Wed Dec 28, 2005 11:04 am

V.W.Baron wrote: So what would be a good method for conditioning metal to ensure good adhesion?

Wire Brush then Metal Ready,Metalprep 79, etc. It is a liquid that will etch/condition the metal.

Here are their links

http://www.por15.com/product.asp?productid=177

http://www.buyhstna.com/docs/234461.pdf

Wed Dec 28, 2005 11:08 am

DurocShark wrote: Sooo... As a minimum:

Scrape (wire wheel)
Acid prep of some kind
Degrease
THEN apply whatever product?

See Campy's post below.......... But, yes, that is certainly better than applying it to the greasy/rusty metal.

Wed Dec 28, 2005 1:20 pm

You should remove anything like grease, oil, or dirt, first, before using a wire wheel, then, after using the wire wheel, use Metalprep 79 or something similar.
I copied the following from the label of my one gallon container of Metalprep 79: it is a non-flammable, multi-purpose acid metal cleaner and conditioner; it penetrates deep into the pores of the metal and lifts or dissolves away oxidation, soils, and other contaminants; it dissolves away rust or rust stains; it rapidly neutralizes residue left from soldering, brazing, and welding; it etches the metal and prepares it for painting.
I bought the one gallon container of Metalprep 79 about six years ago. Go to your local paint dealer and see what he has; by now, maybe there is a product that is better. Again, for protection against corrosion, you can follow it with something like Galvaprep, but that would not be necessary with a sealer like Por-15. Read the directions carefully, since it has an acid in it and you will be mixing it with water.
I see no need to buy a little can of metal conditioner from Por-15 at a rip-off price. Buy a gallon of a metal conditioner and cleaner at a paint store for something like $15. Besides, you should be using it on all of your bare sheet metal before painting it, especially new sheet metal panels, which are smooth underneath the packing primer (the sheet metal panels aren't conditioned at the factory, they just spray primer paint over them for protection during storage, which is why you can, literally, almost scrape the paint off with your thumb nail) and cold rolled sheet metal panels, which have a thin layer of oil on them.
Again, metal has to be clean and have a texture to it before paint is sprayed or brushed on it, including the rust sealers. I always scuff up clean metal with 200 grit sandpaper to make sure the paint sticks and, depending on how the metal looks, I may or may not follow it with a treatment of Metalprep 79.

Tue Jan 03, 2006 2:15 pm

picklex20 is a great product that is recommended by the autobody guys on the http://www.autobodystore.com/
it beats the tar out of the POR metal prep

http://www.picklex20.com/

Tue Jan 03, 2006 3:03 pm

I agree on the picklex. Excellent, easy to use product and super durable with an epoxy primer like DP40 on it and an automotive finish over that. Also terrific under powdercoating. Using Picklex also allows you to skip using a wash primer. The thing I also really like about Picklex is that like the other metal prep products, it penetrates things like springs, threads etc and kills/converts the rust. I don't see how some of these "encapsulator" products can do that. If I had a really crusty floorpan or something like that, I would use an encapsulator. Otherwise I would try to use a conventional automotive product after prepping the substrate.

Thu Jan 05, 2006 3:31 pm

I have used a rust converter named "Chemprime" before.
US government the national stock number NSN-6850-01-258-1225.

After using it on offshore oil rig equipment in the Gulf of Mexico, I used it before prepping the frame of my 57 Chevy.

If it can work in that saltwater environment, as well as used by the military at Rock Island Arsenal, I felt it was good enough for my frame.

That was years ago, with only primer and chasis black.

The car was sold 15 years ago and still has the same coating with no problems.

http://www.earlstation.com/chemprime.html

Thu Feb 16, 2006 10:28 pm

Thanks Lee for doing this excellent comparison.

I was wondering what the score was, or when you are planning on doing an update!

I have seen a similar unbiased comparison on the net, and POR won in terms of stopping rust creep.

http://www.drjing.com/Mini/BLOG/SideBySide.htm