TheSamba.com :: View topic - Anyone who can build a 300hp aircooled engine?

Sat May 07, 2005 11:44 am

At first glance 165 HP doesn't seem like alot, but you have to figure HP/wieght ratio. You're pushing the HP of an Integra GSR with the weight of a gutted Geo Metro.....165 HP is plenty. You'll find a 165 HP will have most everything in your mirrors up to 4th gear.....I totally agree with Alan_U on that....

Look at it this way: your average 600cc motorcycle (sportbike, R6, GSXR6, ZX6r) only has 90hp give or tke some. They turn 10 second 1320s....and can smoke the hell out of 99% of the cars on the road....

Who cares about HP figures if you have the timeslips.....

*edit* And my personal opinion...all motor is the way to go. No worries, well, not as much, about running rich or lean. And carbed turbo'ing is a PITA. Also, the power is always there, no spooling, no boost issues....I had a Civic boosted with juice...it's fun as hell, but you have the thought of something happenning in the back of your mind....

Sat May 07, 2005 2:35 pm

oicdn wrote: At first glance 165 HP doesn't seem like alot, but you have to figure HP/wieght ratio. You're pushing the HP of an Integra GSR with the weight of a gutted Geo Metro.....165 HP is plenty. You'll find a 165 HP will have most everything in your mirrors up to 4th gear.....I totally agree with Alan_U on that....

Look at it this way: your average 600cc motorcycle (sportbike, R6, GSXR6, ZX6r) only has 90hp give or tke some. They turn 10 second 1320s....and can smoke the hell out of 99% of the cars on the road....

Who cares about HP figures if you have the timeslips.....

*edit* And my personal opinion...all motor is the way to go. No worries, well, not as much, about running rich or lean. And carbed turbo'ing is a PITA. Also, the power is always there, no spooling, no boost issues....I had a Civic boosted with juice...it's fun as hell, but you have the thought of something happenning in the back of your mind....

I disagree completely.Having had both a big NA and a big turbo, big turbo is king by far. I made one intelligent jet change (used wideband 5gas to measure, confirmed with egt) and this blowthrougfh works great. Pump it twice cold, turn the key and it goes. Idles lumpy at 800 rpm cold, smooth at 1000 rpm hot. Pulls like a train, even before it spools. Pulls clean to 6800 rpm on a reference tach, even in 4th gear.Running 12 psi, and thats where I've decided to leave it. There's no NA beetle in my neck of the woods that's on the same page as this one. It's SCAREY fast. It might well be the quickest street car I've ever driven. I ran this out to 6500 rpm in 4th gear, and it hits it quickly.3.88:1 final drive/25.5" tall tires/.0.89:1 4th gear=140.6 mph. It was still pulling.
Try that witha NA type 1 that you can drive to work 8)

Sat May 07, 2005 3:51 pm

You said you were new to VWs. How are you going to keep a 300hp engine together after you spend all that money? I would at least start with a "smaller" motor, maybe 150-200hp. That way you would have a back-up, in-case you run it into the rev-limiter one too many times under boost.Better safe than sorry.

Check out Jake Raby's post on his type-IV powered daily driver. It makes 230+hp (I think) and looks like a hell of a ride.Its in this forum.

Sat May 07, 2005 3:57 pm

it's pretty difficult to compare the hp vs. weight ratio of a motorcycle to a car.

all-motor people get confused about turbo'ed vw's, because they don't understand the role that torque plays at lower rpm's... even off of boost, and with lower static c.r., a mild turbo street cam will make more torque at lower rpm's... and of course there's no comparison when the turbo is on boost.

the exception to that would be the honda vtec system, which is effectively two camshaft designs in one motor... there are turbo'ed honda street cars that have been dyno'ed at more h.p. than the red baron pro mod car makes.

Sat May 07, 2005 4:24 pm

My Bug is by far the fastest car I've ever driven, and alot of people who have been in it have said the same. I have beaten my friends camero z28, friends mustang gt, and my freinds honda civic. The camero has some kind of "hot cam" in it...so he says. Gt was stock excecpt for the duals, and the civic has header, fart can, and intake, and it's a vtec...not that it matters though, lol!! My engine is just a small 1776, with a T3 turbo. Heads have been ported a little, 40x35 valves, berg springs, chromoly pushrods, tcs10 cam, etc, etc.

Sat May 07, 2005 7:05 pm

What is your intended use of this car? Is it going to be a race app, weekend warrior, daily driver? I see that you are stationed overseas (and chances are you are coming back for shore duty or your DD-214) One thing you will have to take into consideration is where you are going to park and work on it. If you are living in the BEQ, then I would take my car nowhere near there. If you have a family or a reliable place to work on it (not the Hobby Shop) then you should be good to go. (Yes I am freshly out of the Navy, but Ive been around long enough to know what not to do - especially with a fast car on base)
-Me

Sun May 08, 2005 5:37 am

I appreciate everyone for taking the time to give their advice. I have heard a lot of good ideas and done a little bit of follow up research on those topics. First of all, this is going to be a street legal daily driver, so everyone knows. Therefore any engine I put in the Beetle needs to be dependable and capable of traveling long distances. I have already started to design an auxilary electric cooling system to prevent overheating (I am a mechanical engineering student away from school for the military). I am starting to think that it may be best to have a turn key motor built for a nitrous set up. A bhp of about 230-250, high pressure seals and gaskets, forged and balanced everything, with ceramic coat everywhere that matters. I have left out a lot of other details to keep the message short. With this type of set up I think I could get everything I want. High performance daily driver with nitrous on stand by for those special occasions (since I won't always be driving it fast). Please continue to send me your opinions and advice as they are greatly appreciated.

Thank you everyone

P.S. The car is in Oklahoma city. I keep it in a storage space or at a buddie of mines shop. I am having the mechanical work done while I am overseas for the Navy. My friends and family are helping me with getting to and from shops and I work the money and talking end via internet and phone. I will occasionaly check on it when I take leave. I will do the interior, exterior, and stereo when I get back. I have set aside $550 a month for the next 2.5 years (16,500) to do the mechanical work.

Sun May 08, 2005 6:07 am

The Noof wrote: I disagree completely.Having had both a big NA and a big turbo, big turbo is king by far. I made one intelligent jet change (used wideband 5gas to measure, confirmed with egt) and this blowthrougfh works great. Pump it twice cold, turn the key and it goes. Idles lumpy at 800 rpm cold, smooth at 1000 rpm hot. Pulls like a train, even before it spools. Pulls clean to 6800 rpm on a reference tach, even in 4th gear.Running 12 psi, and thats where I've decided to leave it. There's no NA beetle in my neck of the woods that's on the same page as this one. It's SCAREY fast. It might well be the quickest street car I've ever driven. I ran this out to 6500 rpm in 4th gear, and it hits it quickly.3.88:1 final drive/25.5" tall tires/.0.89:1 4th gear=140.6 mph. It was still pulling.
Try that witha NA type 1 that you can drive to work 8)

There's no doubt Turbo is the King of HP, but like stated below, hitting that rev limiter one too many times being throttle happy....disaster.

I definitly loved my turbo Civic, with nitrous it turned low-mid 12's on a mildy built ZC(pretty much an 89 integra motor, no vtec, but lower compression and better internals from the factory) full interior. Boost is fun, but I was always worried about that boost controller spiking. It was an electronic one, not a crappy manual Turbo XS and I was still worried.

I'll tell you though, so far it's been the funnest car I've ever driven. Hopefully that changes here soon ;-) But if I could do it all again, I think I would have used that $2-3K of turbo-ing and go-gas on building an even better NA powerplant. Or better yet, on my tranny. I'de rather have a COMPLETLY bulletproof NA motor than a semi built Turbo app, just for the peace of mind. But that's just me. Turbo's are defintly fun as hell though....

Sun May 08, 2005 8:43 am

A couple of things I would make sure of if you are shooting for that kind of power out of a turbo VW motor:
1. Welded German crankshaft w/ type 4 center mains
2. Carillo rods
3. New case
4. Adjustable boost from the dash
5. Mendeola Trans, with Berg 5 speed.
6. Forged pistons and cylinders
7. Disc brakes all the way around. Wide Goodyear Eagle GT tires, w/ sway bars.
8. A excellent roll cage and Simpson 5 way harness seat belts.
All the safety equipment is a TOP PRIORITY. You can easily kill yourself in that little car with 300 horsepower :shock: ! I say this because my 150 horsepower bug is all over the uneven pavement at 85 MPH.
Be ready for maintenance, with that kind of power you WILL blow that motor up in my opinion. You will need the best of everything. I would say look to spend AT LEAST 20,000 if not 30,000.
If you are really a bugnut go for it! If not, HELL BUY A NEW CORVETTE :D

Sun May 08, 2005 10:25 am

okor98 wrote: this is going to be a street legal daily driver, any engine I put in the Beetle needs to be dependable and capable of traveling long distances. it may be best to have a turn key motor built for a nitrous set up. A bhp of about 230-250, High performance daily driver with nitrous on stand by for those special occasions (since I won't always be driving it fast). I have set aside $550 a month for the next 2.5 years (16,500) to do the mechanical work.

As I said here before all you need is a low compression 2276 turbo to be scary fast.
A NOS system is not pratical for a street car. Things you have to be aware of and need to do: a nos fuel pump at the proper psi, the right nos jet combo, pressure switch, arming switch, full throttle switch, timing retard box, you need to manually turn on the valve, the bottle needs to be 1/3 or more full, the bottle temp is your most important thing to consider-needs to be around 80-90 F- colder and your mixture goes rich-less power- hotter and you make more power- leaner untill you burn a hole in your piston. A single stage, 4 fogger setup will only give you 70 H/P. You take a 160 H/P N/A engine and add 70 NOS and you got 230 flywheel H/P and a 2000 pound S/B, so you will have 200 wheel H/P which equals 12.00 @ 109. This is fast at first but you will get used to it and it is NOT "scary fast". 10.2's @ 130 IS scary fast. The only thing that could hang with you is a street bike.

Sun May 08, 2005 10:39 am

The Noof wrote:
I disagree completely.Having had both a big NA and a big turbo, big turbo is king by far. Pulls like a train, even before it spools. Pulls clean to 6800 rpm on a reference tach, even in 4th gear.Running 12 psi, and thats where I've decided to leave it. There's no NA beetle in my neck of the woods that's on the same page as this one. It's SCAREY fast. It might well be the quickest street car I've ever driven. I ran this out to 6500 rpm in 4th gear, and it hits it quickly.3.88:1 final drive/25.5" tall tires/.0.89:1 4th gear=140.6 mph. It was still pulling.
Try that witha NA type 1 that you can drive to work 8)

DITTO to that!!!
I have my engine set to 9 PSI on pump gas, pulls to 6K in 4th gear, 4.57 R&P, .77 4th, 3.51 overall ratio, 25.5 tall tires 130 MPH. 20,000 miles and counting.

Sun May 08, 2005 10:48 am

A friend of mine has a gutted 89 civic with a gsr motor and a transaxle from japan and he's doing 12.6's in the 1/4 with his naturally aspirated car. Thing is he drives that car everyday and its super reliable. Your turboed civic sounds like a beast too. Thing is I'm just gonna give you a reality check.

The flat 4 is a long pushrod engine so its gonna take either heavy spring pressures to control the valve or super light components (which most hardcore dragracers stay away from). The B18 integra motor is a overhead cam engine that can be reved to the moon. The stock conrods are pretty good too.

Most aircooled beetle guys that run 12's and 11's DO NOT drive their cars everyday. The stock beetle motor use to run peanuts for HP but now we are pushing the limits and producing 150 - 300+ HP. Going from a stock engine to 300+hp will definitely create more wear and tear on alot of areas in the engine. The lifter bores in the engine will wear alot quicker compared to a valtrain setup in an overhead cam engine like the B18.

If your gonna build this 300+hp car for weekend warrior stuff you have some serious potential but if you intend to drive it frequently be prepared to spend the bucks in maintenance. Dont worry you'll blow up that 300HP engine quick. Push anything to that limit will have a lower reliability factor even if you buy the best.

I do serious maintenance to my NA 2332 motor (runs on pumpgas) thats put me in the 11's. This car is a daily driver and I beat the crap out of it but I pay for it in preventative maintenance.

I know guys with B18's that are slower but they just rev to 8 grand all day long with NO issues. I guess it all depends on what you really want to do.

This is no candy coated story either. Extreme flat 4's will not last as long as a brutally beaten B18. If your mechanically enclined your gonna love the power of the flat 4 in a beetle.

The mendeola transmission is more for hardcore drag racers. They are available in 5 speed (not berg 5 speed) but you'll need to do some handy work to get it in the street car by relocating the starter. Super expensive though. Not a common site to see.

A turbo setup is the cats ass. But right now my pumpgas 11 second daily driver street car is good enough for me. Its all about bragging rights and testosterone and my house morgage tells me different. I've already broken so many things on my motor and trans and these are things that are put together properly. I've gotten to the point that "you race you break" and thats a fact. ALOT OF PEOPLE just dont tell you there heartaches and empty wallets.

Sun May 08, 2005 4:56 pm

Alan_U wrote: A friend of mine has a gutted 89 civic with a gsr motor and a transaxle from japan and he's doing 12.6's in the 1/4 with his naturally aspirated car. Thing is he drives that car everyday and its super reliable. Your turboed civic sounds like a beast too. Thing is I'm just gonna give you a reality check.

The flat 4 is a long pushrod engine so its gonna take either heavy spring pressures to control the valve or super light components (which most hardcore dragracers stay away from). The B18 integra motor is a overhead cam engine that can be reved to the moon. The stock conrods are pretty good too.

Most aircooled beetle guys that run 12's and 11's DO NOT drive their cars everyday. The stock beetle motor use to run peanuts for HP but now we are pushing the limits and producing 150 - 300+ HP. Going from a stock engine to 300+hp will definitely create more wear and tear on alot of areas in the engine. The lifter bores in the engine will wear alot quicker compared to a valtrain setup in an overhead cam engine like the B18.

If your gonna build this 300+hp car for weekend warrior stuff you have some serious potential but if you intend to drive it frequently be prepared to spend the bucks in maintenance. Dont worry you'll blow up that 300HP engine quick. Push anything to that limit will have a lower reliability factor even if you buy the best.

I do serious maintenance to my NA 2332 motor (runs on pumpgas) thats put me in the 11's. This car is a daily driver and I beat the crap out of it but I pay for it in preventative maintenance.

I know guys with B18's that are slower but they just rev to 8 grand all day long with NO issues. I guess it all depends on what you really want to do.

This is no candy coated story either. Extreme flat 4's will not last as long as a brutally beaten B18. If your mechanically enclined your gonna love the power of the flat 4 in a beetle.

The mendeola transmission is more for hardcore drag racers. They are available in 5 speed (not berg 5 speed) but you'll need to do some handy work to get it in the street car by relocating the starter. Super expensive though. Not a common site to see.

A turbo setup is the cats ass. But right now my pumpgas 11 second daily driver street car is good enough for me. Its all about bragging rights and testosterone and my house morgage tells me different. I've already broken so many things on my motor and trans and these are things that are put together properly. I've gotten to the point that "you race you break" and thats a fact. ALOT OF PEOPLE just dont tell you there heartaches and empty wallets.

Definitly the B18 or most any Honda engine is gonna be more reliable than the aircooled beetle. My Civic was a blast (I sold it....) and was definitly fun. It was pretty maintenance free....just oil changes and that was about it. And I know that when I build my 2332 it's gonna be a PITA maintenance wise, well so far that's the vibe I'm getting....but I'm ready for it. You don't have to convince me that my 2332 is gonna be a maintenance whore, but I'm thinking alot of people that give the horror stories cut corners they don't let us in on..... I'm ready for it, but I think you can definitly build a reliable one. I mean, you do it right the first time, it SHOULD last, all things being equal of course.

I'm not gonna build a 300HP motor...hell no. I'm completely complacent with a "run of the mill" 2332. I'm convinced you can build a daily driven 2332 aircooled motor. But 300HP, definitly not.....But I think this 300HP motor is a bit on the onoxious side, and with 30K invested into a Beetle, where you're gonna need some SERIOUS suspension work, not to mention some brakes to stop that beast...for a daily driver...it's well, a bit stupid. Maintenance is gonna be insane with rebuilds. But hey, to each his own.

I think this 300HP thing is a bit crazy....how fast are you seriously wanting? 300HP in that light a chassis, like stated above, are usually not daily driven.....

Sun May 08, 2005 9:27 pm

Theres a guy in my area with a very similar engine configuration as mine but with turbo. I am in the 11.90 category in my daily driver and the turbo guy is in the 10.80's. My engine has held together even after driving it almost everyday including some track time. The turbo however see's very little street and some track time but a "hotrod" went through his engine case.

So why did Darren rebuild your engine this year? I am the guy with the 10.80 beetle, what happened was I ran the car lean, I have since had it rebuilt and bought a modual so this would not happen again

Sun May 08, 2005 10:51 pm

pointblank wrote: Theres a guy in my area with a very similar engine configuration as mine but with turbo. I am in the 11.90 category in my daily driver and the turbo guy is in the 10.80's. My engine has held together even after driving it almost everyday including some track time. The turbo however see's very little street and some track time but a "hotrod" went through his engine case.

So why did Darren rebuild your engine this year? I am the guy with the 10.80 beetle, what happened was I ran the car lean, I have since had it rebuilt and bought a modual so this would not happen again

Shane my point is shi!! happens with massive HP. When your car in the initial stages of being put together ran a 1/4 mile and it ate the first mainshaft. Why??? because of the HP. Would the best oil in the world prevented that??? NOPE. Stress from HP found the weakest point and destroyed it.

Read my post carefully and you'll see my point. Not slamming or disrespecting your 350+hp motor. I see people getting jaded over other peoples achievements but they have no idea the $$$ and heartaches and empty wallets. They just see timeslips.

Why was my engine at darrens shop you ask??? why DID I REBUILD MY OWN ENGINE???? dont worry you'll have to crack you engine case too because all SCAT LIFTERS will pit to hell. Even though I didn't have any valve float my resurfaced new scat lifters they still pitted horribly although no deterioration occured on my cam lobes. I REBUILT MY OWN ENGINE because its called preventative maintenance before I lose HP from a flat cam lobe. If I wasn't driving my car so much my lifters may have lasted a tad longer.

Oicdn, even the best built engine with the best components will grenade it'll just be a matter of time. With massive HP stress will find a weak point and go from there. Thats with any automotive sport.

Mon May 09, 2005 7:16 am

Alan_U wrote: Oicdn, even the best built engine with the best components will grenade it'll just be a matter of time. With massive HP stress will find a weak point and go from there. Thats with any automotive sport.

I hear that....but relatively speaking. I think comparing that guys wanted 300HP beetle motor to a "run of the mill" 2332 is almost like apples and oranges.

Here's the build kit I'm getting....

http://www.evwparts.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=ScatEngineRaceKits

Heh, I see it has the scat lightweight lifters....gonna have to get rid of those, :lol:

With that build, just driven as a commuter, with the occassional blast from light to light with a ricer, I think it'll be fine....right? I was thinkin about increasing cooling even further by getting Split Port heads....but I haven't done all my homework yet.....

Mon May 09, 2005 9:07 am

you want to run scat split port heads on the street? oh boy... tell ya what, that dog won't hunt... those are race-only heads.

do you have any idea who turbo bob is? or what he has accomplished? read his website, it's really old info, but you should be able to get the idea: www.turbobobefi.com

he's done both n/a and turbo... lotta good advice there.

Mon May 09, 2005 11:13 pm

Alan_U wrote:
#1-my point is shi!! happens with massive HP.

#2-they have no idea the $$$ and heartaches and empty wallets. They just see timeslips.

#3-SCAT LIFTERS will pit to hell. Even though I didn't have any valve float my resurfaced new scat lifters they still pitted horribly although no deterioration occured on my cam lobes. I REBUILT MY OWN ENGINE because its called preventative maintenance before I lose HP from a flat cam lobe.

#4-even the best built engine with the best components will grenade it'll just be a matter of time. With massive HP stress will find a weak point and go from there.

Alan, your achevement of taking a N/A street bug on pump gas and getting it in the 11's is fantastic. The way your on top of your engine maintenance so it stays quick and not fall apart is the way to go. Most people do not have the dedication to stay with it.

BUTT

#1 It can happen with any engine put together with aftermarket parts by inexperenced builders.

#4 Not true, as long as the engine was built right, proper cooling, octane vs. C/R, RPM's kept below valve float and the proper preventative maintenance along the way the engine will last.

Tue May 10, 2005 12:26 am

Terry Cloyd wrote: Try out the 108mmX94mm crankshaft and you will have a 3445cc VW with a turbo

I saw the words '3445cc' and 'VW' and choked on my coffee. I can't even BEGIN to imagine how that car would feel.

Tue May 10, 2005 10:39 am

okor98 here is a good site to get some ideas from.

http://www.geneberg.com/

You can spend some time in the tech tips section and learn alot about high performance VW engines.

Gene was one of the first to "hotrod" VW engines.