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Wed Jun 01, 2005 11:05 pm

Hi,
I am planning on using the Wiseco pistons for a turbo engine and can't seem to find good cylinders, not piston+cylinder sets, for a good deal. I need something better than like cima. Also, dont want to spend more than $800 for a set of cylinders. Also, are there better pistons than Wisecos for less than $1000? Thanks in advance.

Thu Jun 02, 2005 5:50 am

the new AA pistons are supposed to be really good!!!

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=120464

the whole package for $300.00, by is selling the same thing and calling them slipper skirts and selling them for $400.00

http://www.cbperformance.com/catalog.asp?ProductID=1429

you can do a search at www.shoptalkforums.com

there is some good info there about this product line......

i did not buy these..... i am going with a 2109cc 76mm xx 94mm and the forged pistons only come in "B" style pistons...... not "A's"

Thu Jun 02, 2005 7:11 am

The cima cylinder is actually quite good.
other options maybe be if you need a longer length, then the Century cylinders sold by JayCee and Heads Up are the next in line.
Autocraft makes a cylinder as well.
Jaycee makes a non cooling fin cylinder as well for race only in a 96.5ish size, dont know if they would do a 94 or not, but you can call Jack up and see what he says.

Better piston then wiseco? Well its all about application. You can have a piston custom designed for around 500-600 a set through wiseco, JE, or any of the other major piston players. other then that, they are all using about the same material for the piston it self.

Thu Jun 02, 2005 7:35 am

lol, pistons and cylinders for the price of a set of wiseco pistons and they calim to be stronger, in fact they claim to be as strong as JE pistons. Oh, I just checked out the autocraft set, very nice price. Would you say it is good enough for a very powerful(read:300+HP) 2054cc(or2165) turbo engine? Also, what machining or treatment can be done to pistons and cylinders to produce more power/last longer/etc.

Thu Jun 02, 2005 7:59 am

the Cima/mahle cylinder will hold back 300 hp with out any problems what so ever. Its done all the time. I have seen them hold a lot more too.
I use a Century cylinder that is just a long cima basically, at 300 hp for the last year cosistantly, and been in turbo mode at 220-300 since 2001 and were also used in alky NA motor for a few years before that. I am now going on my 7th season with them.
the AA piston and cylinder come with a cylinder that is the same quality as the Century's, but just doesnt have the extra length. the AA piston them selves are made of the same 2618 alloy that Wiseco, JE, or any of the other high end pistons are made of. Just made oversea's. I am currently trying a set of the AA pistons in my Century's. (retired my 10 year old set of cima pistons) Weather they are as good or stronger then any of the others, only time will tell. I probably will never have a problem with them since i do not try and rotate the earth either.
And with any of the 2618 alloy pistons, you just have to make sure you have enough piston to cylinder clearance. and with a turbo, you may want even more.
Dont know if there are any treatments you can do to a cast iron cylinder that would be worth while. you may check into cryo type treatment.
I have heard of pressing on a second ring around the top of a cylinder for extra strenth, but the problem with the 94 is there is no more room for that and clear the head studs.
if you have any sort of detonation, pretty much nothing is going to stay together.

Fri Jun 03, 2005 6:53 am

Those Autocraft with Wisecos look pretty good but do I have any other choices?

Fri Jun 03, 2005 7:14 am

you can call up Roger at Heads up performance or Jack at Jaycee and see if they have any thing better. If there is something better, they will either know or make them.

Fri Jun 03, 2005 5:56 pm

Mike, I see you have an 84mm scat crank, which is that the $3-350 forged or the $800 scat "gucci" crank? Also, your site says that you have Pauter rods, do you think that they are necessary for 3-350hp on the street and about 450hp on the track or could one get away with Scat or Bugpack rods(about $350 instead of $650)?

Fri Jun 03, 2005 8:11 pm

actually i do need to do a little site updating.
I use to run one of the higher end 800 dollar scat cranks, but when i ripped the flywheel off, it is now an expensive paper weight. I have since switched to a bugpack flanged crank. NO MORE loss of flywheels.

And because of the crank change, that ended up changing my rod journal size and had to retire the pauter rods.
I am currently using a Scat h beam.
the nice thing about turbo motors is it will not beat the crap out of a rod like a naturally aspirated motor does. there is always a positive pressure on one side of the rod and does not yank on the cap. BUT there is a lot of pressure pushing down.
if i wanted to go 450 hp, id be keeping a pauter rod in mind. But i was never going to go into that realm my self, so the scat rod was an inexpensive alternitave at the time. Normally i try and buy good quality, such as when i got those pauter rods. but the family life now a days keeps me on a budget.

Fri Jun 03, 2005 8:30 pm

Yeah, I was thinking a scat rod would be inadequate but I was hoping as I don't expect to be driving it on the track a ton, mainly a street legal and perhaps even slightly streetable race car.

Fri Jun 03, 2005 8:39 pm

MaidenFan wrote: Yeah, I was thinking a scat rod would be inadequate but I was hoping as I don't expect to be driving it on the track a ton, mainly a street legal and perhaps even slightly streetable race car.

The scat rod is not bad at all. it probably would hold up fine, but thats a lot of hp to handle and i know a pauter would be up to the task.
Pauter is like the number 2 rod next to carrillo's. but under turbo conditions, i think i would take a pauter over carrillo.

Fri Jun 03, 2005 9:48 pm

Wow, Pauter over Carillo? Pauter is unheard of in other types of engines(V8s for example) yet Carillo is a BIG player in all kinds of motorsports. Also, do you know who makes the ARP head studs? What journal are you using? I am planning on using chevy journals mainly so that I can use clevite bearings. Would the Bugpack rods be up to it? They are supposed to be a bit better than Scat and I know you like Bugpack and I'd definately rather have a Bugpack part than a Scat part for a few bucks more.

Mike, what is the A/R ratio of your t4 turbo? Also, what do you think of the Superflow2 heads you have? Thanks a ton man, you're too damn knowledgeable... :P !

Sat Jun 04, 2005 4:10 pm

The issue with any rod for the vw application is the fact that we typically need the bolt pattern on the piston side and not on the cap. pauter does a very good job of making them.
Not to say that if you used a pauter case, you can then use a standard v8 configuration rod if you wanted to. sky is the limit then. Full aluminum rods if you wanted too.

the only real ARP head studs that i know of are being distributed by L&N Engineering, they have worked with ARP to develope it.
Scat has the 8740 material head stud in 8mm but not sure who makes them. I would assume arp.

Chevy (buick) journal 2" is the norm now a days. Short of having a crank custom made with somethng else like a 2.100 journal. (chrysler) $$$$$
Bugpack rods were made by Eagle. Every ones stuff is all forged overseas, so its sort of a gamble what is what. I have heard good and bad. the only reason i went scat over the other inexpensive rods, Scat is now putting a big 3/8" bolt in. although probably not as important in a turbo motor, but in a naturally aspierated higher rpm motor, that clamping force is what is going to help keep that big end of the rod, round. thats why Carrillo uses such a good bolt, keep that clamping force in place but use a smaller bolt to accomplish it. The pauter rod even uses a big arp2000 3/8 bolt. The down side to big bolt rods is clearance on every thing else. once you get past 82 on a big bolt rod, just have to work harder to clearance the cam, etc. I am working on an 86 stroke with a scat I beam 3/8 bolt rod. the notches i had to put into the cam makes it right at .700" thick. i would start to get scared if we were going to run big springs agains that cam. fortuantly its a small cam and only vw od duals will be riding on it.

My turbo sizing. to be honest, that is sort of my turbo guys secret. He didnt tell me. the only thing i can tell you is the exhaust housing is a .84. I dont know any thing else about it and one of the only things i ahve not done my homework on yet. it works.

My superflow 2 heads are a 1984 vintage. my brother purchaed them first, got to my friends hand and i purchased them back in 89. they have been rock solid. but they were made when people cared too. Too bad they have stopped making them. for a medium natually asperated race only motor, they are awesome. Excelent flow (after massaging) wiht out the huge port.
for the turbo application. they work. My motor was just a NA motor to begin with. i pulled the carbs off, slapped the turbo on and kept going. So there was no designing this motor for turbo use to begin with. It is really an inneficient configuration, yet still makes gobs of easy hp.