TheSamba.com :: View topic - Empi's "Super-Cool" Tins

Fri Nov 25, 2005 3:17 pm

Hello All,

I haven't exactly built a performance engine, but I did some mods and want to put it past some of you engine gurus to see if anyone can point-out any issues that could arise.

Here's the highlights:

-It's a '67 1500cc. I put on 1600cc Barrels/Pistons.
-I adapted some 36hp "shoe boxes" to make a stale-air heating system
-I added Empi "Cool-air" tins to the under sides of the barrels.
-It's a standard Non-Doghouse shroud
-Aside from the top-side cyinder tins and pulley shroud, no other tin peices are used

I converted to stale-air to replicate the system used on a Kubelwagen, which is what my repro project is. I acquired a thermostat with flaps for the shroud, but have not installed them.

So, my question is, is the Empi "Super-cool" tins an adequate modification to help ensure that I am cooling sufficiently?

Any advice or comments would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance,
Ken

Fri Nov 25, 2005 4:40 pm

That is a killer muffler! Where did you get it?

Fri Nov 25, 2005 4:50 pm

I made them. A friend in the UK disected an original Kubel exhaust that was shot and made some detailed notes. It was pretty easy. Any advice or comments on the cooling tins?

Fri Nov 25, 2005 8:31 pm

The cool tins, as I'm to understand, were originally designed for Type 3 engines, not Type 1's...and the Type 3 has a "horizontal" (pancake) cooling system, whereas the Type 1 is vertically oriented. It's been a source of contention among builders, but I think the general verdict is that stock deflectors are best for Type 1's.

My only concern regarding the 36 horse heater boxes is I THINK--not positive, though--that the early exhausts were smaller diameter than 1-3/8" on the later cars. I thought I read somewhere that the exhaust diameter on the early cars was around 1-1/4", but I'm not sure of this. Can any vintage gurus back me up on this? My only thought, if this is the case, that those stale air boxes will be mighty restrictive for a later engine.

Fri Nov 25, 2005 8:45 pm

Thanks Bugnut.

I've heard before about the type 3 origins. I was told that the type 3's had cooling issues and this tinware was the remedy. I heard Empi made aftermarkets because it was regarded to be a general improvement in the heating system tinware. ??? I can see where they would offer more resistance to flow, and therefore greater residence time of the cooling air. I wonder if the final verdict you mention was after much debate if there is not enough difference to be concerned?

I'm not using the J-Tubes from a 36hp. I made my own headers with 1-1/2" tubing and will route them through my own heat exchange boxes. I was worried about ample diameter too.

Fri Nov 25, 2005 9:08 pm

I think that Jake Raby did some dyno testing and in-car testing with those tins and he found they didn't work as well as the stock ones with the upright cooling. You might not notice the difference with what is essentially a stock engine, but if you got an opportunity, I'd put the stock ones back in.

Tuna

Sat Nov 26, 2005 12:51 pm

vintagemx0 wrote: Thanks Bugnut.

I've heard before about the type 3 origins. I was told that the type 3's had cooling issues and this tinware was the remedy. I heard Empi made aftermarkets because it was regarded to be a general improvement in the heating system tinware. ??? I can see where they would offer more resistance to flow, and therefore greater residence time of the cooling air. I wonder if the final verdict you mention was after much debate if there is not enough difference to be concerned?

I'm not using the J-Tubes from a 36hp. I made my own headers with 1-1/2" tubing and will route them through my own heat exchange boxes. I was worried about ample diameter too.
Another thing, too, is that Empi isn't the only one selling those tins...Bugpack also carries them as does Scat, I believe. Odds are they all come from the same (Chinese/Taiwanese) plant. :-)

Sat Nov 26, 2005 11:22 pm

If you do not run the sled tins you MUST run type 3 lower tins. All the debate over these is silly. Obviously the stock tin works best together with all its original pieces AND A STOCK ENGINE. But when you can not run the sled tins, like with a high performance merged header, the stock type 1 cylinder diverters dont cut it. The improvement is then type 3 lower cylinder tins.

Sun Nov 27, 2005 12:46 pm

How are they an "improvement?" Jake already said that they don't work as well as the stock Type 1 deflectors. And as far as merged headers, there are headers made that clear the stock tin as well as set ups that allow heater boxes and the use of stock tin, as well...though it doesn't come cheap.

Mon Nov 28, 2005 11:02 am

There are a TON of variables with this and the results that are found with various tins..

First of all the cylinder heads that are used will impact the results as well as the cooling system that is used. I found that with some cooling systems using the TIII tins (A.K.A.Super cool tins) increased the INEFFICIENCY os some of the better cooling systems.. Then some of the cooling systems that sucked the worst did a tad better with the TIII tins or saw no impact from them.

I measured head/cylinder temps from 3 different head/cylinder locations on all 4 cylinders simultaneously. The results pointed toward the fact that the stock TI tins worked much better as a general rule than the TIII tins. The TIII tins also increased HP draw from the fan by a couple % and lowered the point where the HP draw became apparent by as much as 750 RPM.

This is why I recommend TI tins, but as I said results may vary due to all the variations of TI cylinder heads, cooling systems and etc.