TheSamba.com :: View topic - Clutches - what pressure plate with what throwout bearing

Fri Aug 11, 2006 4:01 am

:D Hi folks,

A wee query regarding the sleeve fitting. Where exactly does it fit?
I am fitting a later 1600 t/p engine into my 66 split.
I have the sleeve below right.

and the early bearing like this

Where does the sleeve go?
Thanx
Bofs

Sat Aug 12, 2006 3:02 am

Not on your transmission. That there is an early type transmission

and has no holes to mount the sleeve and so you'll need the clutch with a

ring on it and not the type with spring fingers only. I removed my engine

and put the early type clutch with a ring on a spring and now i'm running

O.K. I used my newer clutch disk from the OG engines flywheel and

used the other cars ring-clad clutch that was made for the early style

transmission with no sleeve. I had "adjusted the clutch" for my mistake

and could not get the engine the last inch into the tranny. I pushed

myself then with a neighbor then with my girlfriend and the neighbor and

somehow we got it in. When I went to check the clutch adjust ment I

found it WAY too tight! The "adjustment of the clutch" with the wrong

clutch setup was so wrong the I had my throwout bearing stopping three

people pushing a supported small engine one inch. I spent a lot of time

loosening the TIGHT clutch cable with an 11mm wrench hooked on the

impossible to turn wingnut! But it was quite a learning experience.[/quote]

Sat Aug 12, 2006 12:14 pm

Bofs wrote: :D Hi folks,

A wee query regarding the sleeve fitting. Where exactly does it fit?
I am fitting a later 1600 t/p engine into my 66 split.
I have the sleeve below right.

and the early bearing like this

Where does the sleeve go?
Thanx
Bofs

The sleeve goes on the shelf. You need an early style pressure plate with ring to mate up with the early style throwout bearing.

If you're using an early style throwout bearing, do yourself a favor and run a piece of safety wire around the periphery of the throwout bearing and through the loops of the attachment springs. This prevents the springs from popping out and setting the bearing free.

Also, get some really thin safety wire and wire the two holes together on the snapring on the throwout shaft at upper left in the early throwout bearing photo. Sometimes these snaprings come adrift and allow the shaft to move to the left.

Either of these occurances mean you have to pull the engine, something I like to avoid doing.

Thu Aug 17, 2006 12:48 pm

ok so im a newb to this and have been scouring the site looking for help, i have been building a bug basicaaly from the ground up. Started with a 05/70 with a single port and am in the process of installing a unknown year 1600 d/p. Motor starts and runs great but cannot gety the clutch to kick in. I reviewed this thread and pulled the motor and swapped the clutch (brand new) to match the throw out bearing to pressure plate (early throw out and late pressure plate). Not to confuse, I now have all early model clutch equipment. I cannot get the clutch to allow shifting. I have adjusted the cable almost all the way down the threads and when the motor is running it will grind a bit if i try to get it into second and third sounds like its dragging the motor down. Is this a simple fix or am i looking to pull the pedal assembly for new cable? :x :? Please help me!!!

Thu Aug 17, 2006 2:35 pm

scout164 wrote: ok so im a newb to this and have been scouring the site looking for help, i have been building a bug basicaaly from the ground up. Started with a 05/70 with a single port and am in the process of installing a unknown year 1600 d/p. Motor starts and runs great but cannot gety the clutch to kick in. I reviewed this thread and pulled the motor and swapped the clutch (brand new) to match the throw out bearing to pressure plate (early throw out and late pressure plate). Not to confuse, I now have all early model clutch equipment. I cannot get the clutch to allow shifting. I have adjusted the cable almost all the way down the threads and when the motor is running it will grind a bit if i try to get it into second and third sounds like its dragging the motor down. Is this a simple fix or am i looking to pull the pedal assembly for new cable? :x :? Please help me!!!

OK, is the cable loose in the throwout arm on the transmission? If so, you probably have a parts mismatch inside.

Is the cable tight? Does the clutch engage when you remove the wing nut from the clutch cable? In that case your clutch cable is too short. They varied by year, IIRC.

George

Thu Aug 17, 2006 4:11 pm

I havent been able to get any forward motion under its own power. The only way ive been able to drive my bug is before the engine install with the help of an atv and a tow strap. I am using the clutch cable that was in the car because it looks like its in good shape on the ends. Of course wouldnt know if it was stretched to much or not in the middle. If I changed the pressure plate from late to early would it be necessary to change the cable? It doesnt seem like the change if at all would be that drastic. I have the pressure plate and throwout like pictured in the early model. Whst a pain in the Arse!! :wink: :roll:

Thu Aug 17, 2006 9:25 pm

scout164 wrote: I havent been able to get any forward motion under its own power. The only way ive been able to drive my bug is before the engine install with the help of an atv and a tow strap. I am using the clutch cable that was in the car because it looks like its in good shape on the ends. Of course wouldnt know if it was stretched to much or not in the middle. If I changed the pressure plate from late to early would it be necessary to change the cable? It doesnt seem like the change if at all would be that drastic. I have the pressure plate and throwout like pictured in the early model. Whst a pain in the Arse!! :wink: :roll:

No, the same cable will work.

Let's get this straight. Is the clutch "permanantly disengaged"? In other works, does the engine start and run and can you put it in gear with the engine running?

Second question: _IF_ you have a late model transmission with the collar around the input shaft, did you remove the collar when you converted to an early-style clutch?

Third question: With the wing nut removed, is the clutch still disengaged?

Fri Aug 18, 2006 1:08 am

To answer your question engine starts and runs fine in neutral its when i push the clutch pedal in to put it in gear i either get a grind into 2nd or reverse, first gear wont budge and im not going to force anything. Trying third gear it sounds as if I was trying to power shift from neutral to third and the motor begins to bog down but again im not going to force it in. Ive owned a few clutches so ive got an idea of what im doing.

Second question: It was a early model throw out bearing already so it doesnt have the collar nor holes if it was missing one. Since I was replacing the late style pressure plate and disk I replaced the throw out also. My setup matches to the early style pics in this thread.

Third question I have not completely removed the wing nut. What should i be looking for or doing or hearing? I read that in a response earlier but never followed up and asked. It sounds like an adjustment problem to me. But again im a newby and am learning quickly. I have the manual and some other books but at this point they arent helping much.

p.s. I did check my slack on the cable tube( cant remember name, kinda late) and it looked like a good 1" drop like the manual stated

Fri Aug 18, 2006 7:30 am

scout164 wrote: To answer your question engine starts and runs fine in neutral its when i push the clutch pedal in to put it in gear i either get a grind into 2nd or reverse, first gear wont budge and im not going to force anything. Trying third gear it sounds as if I was trying to power shift from neutral to third and the motor begins to bog down but again im not going to force it in. Ive owned a few clutches so ive got an idea of what im doing.

Second question: It was a early model throw out bearing already so it doesnt have the collar nor holes if it was missing one. Since I was replacing the late style pressure plate and disk I replaced the throw out also. My setup matches to the early style pics in this thread.

Third question I have not completely removed the wing nut. What should i be looking for or doing or hearing? I read that in a response earlier but never followed up and asked. It sounds like an adjustment problem to me. But again im a newby and am learning quickly. I have the manual and some other books but at this point they arent helping much.

p.s. I did check my slack on the cable tube( cant remember name, kinda late) and it looked like a good 1" drop like the manual stated

Hmm, sounds like it isn't disengaging completely. How does the clutch feel? Does it feel like it is moving properly?

If so, you have some sort of problem in the clutch itself. Might be a pilot bearing seizing, warped clutch disk, pressure plate problem, or the clutch disk sticking on its splined shaft. Any of these require another engine pull. Sorry.

Sat Aug 19, 2006 7:45 am

I was running an early model throw out bearing set up on a trans that had the studs in it for the sleeve. the bearing/release arm would bottom out on the studs before it could fully release. the car would barely roll while slipping like mad. reminded me of scout164's problem. took the studs out & worked fine.

Sat Aug 19, 2006 10:25 am

well im gonna yank my motor again today and take pics of what i see so you might be able to diagnose my problem a little easier. hopevfully its not something thats easy. Another question if its a d/p 1600 from a bus would it make a difference? It all lined up right and the flywheel was right so is there something else im missing? spacer? shims? I have the bus transaxle sitting on the floor and wanted to get the stock beetle trans to work before i undergo any other trans issues and swap.

Sat Aug 19, 2006 1:48 pm

scout164 wrote: well im gonna yank my motor again today and take pics of what i see so you might be able to diagnose my problem a little easier. hopevfully its not something thats easy. Another question if its a d/p 1600 from a bus would it make a difference? It all lined up right and the flywheel was right so is there something else im missing? spacer? shims? I have the bus transaxle sitting on the floor and wanted to get the stock beetle trans to work before i undergo any other trans issues and swap.

No transmission differences between bus and bug engines.

Sat Aug 19, 2006 2:20 pm

could this be a problem eventhough ive changed pressure plates to one with the centering ring?

Sat Aug 19, 2006 2:22 pm

also, just to verify which side goes toward flywheel? flatside?

Sat Aug 19, 2006 2:30 pm

one more thing clutch made very little contact with flywheel and appears thaty it never touched pressure plate. It this a cable problem? or did i not adjust properly?

Sat Aug 19, 2006 6:13 pm

flat side goes toward flywheel. i wish i could help more! It looks like the center section of your new clutch is larger than the other, could this be a problem? i thought that when you bolt up your clutch/pressure plate assembly it should all be in full contact. flywhheel-- clutch--pressure plate. the throwout bearing pushes in on the assembly[when you push in your clutch peddle] creating slip. is somthing keeping the throw out bearing from being able to back off? I'm no tranny expert by any means, just trying to think this thru & learn also.

Sat Aug 19, 2006 8:08 pm

ok, i got it!! :lol: I needed to exagerate the bowden tube a little more to take out some more play. It could use more but i have forward motion and its going into gear. I needed alot more adjustment but i was figuring because of a new clutch it wouldnt have been that far. So much for thinking inside the box!! Anyways thanks for all you help guys!!

Fri Aug 25, 2006 8:16 am

I am starting to wonder if my throwout bearing failed because of lack of correct parts....

this is the first time I have had it apart since previous owner

part no: same as pictured in this thread 3159 140 037

from what I've read should this type have the sleeve instaled?
mine did not... is this why it failed??

Fri Aug 25, 2006 12:01 pm

What you have is identical to what i was using without sleave. If im looking at it correct it should mate up to the pressure plate with the ring on the fingers type of pressure plate. I had the old style pressure plate that had the three fingers with the ring but since I was buying the kit (pressure plate/throwout/clutch plate) I changed it all. Shucks has basic clutch kit (not performance or anything to special) for $97. Its might want to get new throwout clips as well, they could be a problem and could have caused your throwout to shift a little under pressure. After all the issues I had turned out to be a lack of knowledge on my part but It all worked out with this website and all the knowledge these guys posess. :D

Fri Aug 25, 2006 4:32 pm

o.k,

so why do I have this style throw out bearing(early)

with this style pressure plate

should I change the Shifter arm and bearing to late style?

or change the flywheel(can I)to accept early pressure plate?

PLEASE HELP I'M LOSING MY MIND!!!! :x