TheSamba.com :: View topic - Clutches - what pressure plate with what throwout bearing

Sun Dec 18, 2022 4:31 am

What happens if a later style throwout bearing - that is correct for the transmission -- is mated to a flywheel which has the old style pressure plate with the centering ring attached? The release bearing should still act against the centering ring and disengage the clutch. But, will this disengagement start earlier on or is the surface of the centering ring at the same position as contact would be on ring-less set up?

Since the centering ring had some thickness - was the later release bearing thicker to take up the extra room from not having the bearing or was the additional travel adjusted out at the cable?

Sun Dec 18, 2022 10:28 am

The centering ring on the PP will foul on the throwout bearing sleeve that's bolted to the transmission.

Sun Dec 18, 2022 11:52 am

Pruneman99 wrote: The centering ring on the PP will foul on the throwout bearing sleeve that's bolted to the transmission.
Correct. To illutrate this, go back to page 1 of this thread and see the post with this pic showing the damage to the TO bearing sleeve when the centering ring is left on the PP.

Note: most early style PP with the centering ring can be converted to a later style PP by simply removing the centering ring. So there is no excuse for installing the centering ring on later model cars other than oversight or lack of knowledge/experience by the mechanic doing the work.

Sun Dec 18, 2022 10:56 pm

I’m not sure removing the centering ring will work on this kind of OE pressure plate. Seems like it would chew up the release bearing

Mon Dec 19, 2022 8:30 am

Sorry, I should have started that statement as follows:
“Note: most early style PP with the centering ring (that you can buy today) can be converted…”. :D
I have only seen recently the diaphragm type for sale. Even rebuilt PPs are all the diaphragm type. I suppose this could be different where you live.
And for the rebuilt spring-type PPs and the NOS PPs like pictured above… I did say “most”. :P

Though, I do believe you can remove that centering ring and use that spring-type PP with the newer TO Bearings. Can someone who has done this chime in?

Was there a spring-type PP that did not have a removeable centering ring? I did some searching and all spring type PPs I could find have removeable centering rings, but this may just be for ease of rebuilding them?

Mon Dec 19, 2022 9:04 am

bnam wrote: I’m not sure removing the centering ring will work on this kind of OE pressure plate. Seems like it would chew up the release bearing
Photo 1

Photo 2

Yes, removing the center ring from that type of pressure plate WILL WORK, and work well, with the 1971 and later transmission/throwout bearing types.

In fact, my 1971 VW Convertible (mine since 1976) came from factory with a pressure plate like shown in Photo 2.

And when I installed the 1835cc engine from my 1970 VW (which had a pressure plate as shown in Photo 1) into my 1971, I removed its center ring so it now looks like Photo 2, and that is how it's been ever since. And it runs and shifts fine.

Mon Dec 19, 2022 9:11 am

If you have a 71 and up transaxle with the later style throwout bearing, you'll never get the engine seated to the transaxle if you don't remove the centering ring.

Mon Dec 19, 2022 3:36 pm

Glenn wrote: If you have a 71 and up transaxle with the later style throwout bearing, you'll never get the engine seated to the transaxle if you don't remove the centering ring.

Don't underestimate the ability of some people to screw shit up.

I accidentally made this mistake once when I wasn't paying attention. Your right in the fact that the engine won't slide up to the transmission correctly. This is where I realized my bone head move, lowered the engine back down, and removed the ring.

But I wouldn't put it past someone to use the mounting bolts to sinch it together or something, and crush stuff up.

Like that other thread showing how people make stuff fit backwards somehow.

Mon Dec 19, 2022 6:35 pm

Cusser wrote: bnam wrote: I’m not sure removing the centering ring will work on this kind of OE pressure plate. Seems like it would chew up the release bearing
Photo 1

Photo 2

Yes, removing the center ring from that type of pressure plate WILL WORK, and work well, with the 1971 and later transmission/throwout bearing types.

In fact, my 1971 VW Convertible (mine since 1976) came from factory with a pressure plate like shown in Photo 2.

And when I installed the 1835cc engine from my 1970 VW (which had a pressure plate as shown in Photo 1) into my 1971, I removed its center ring so it now looks like Photo 2, and that is how it's been ever since. And it runs and shifts fine.

Cusser, are you sure it is the same ? My 71 had / still has / the OE 3 arm pressure plate - there are subtle differences from this one. For one, the tips of those arms are subtly different. They don’t have this cut in the middle and the ends were more rounded. With the cut there, I feel pretty certain it till cut into the bearing surface of the release bearing. Let me see if I can find a photo.

Mon Dec 19, 2022 6:38 pm

Pruneman99 wrote: But I wouldn't put it past someone to use the mounting bolts to sinch it together or something, and crush stuff up.
A good way to damage the TO bearing, guide tube and/or pressure plate.

From the 1st post.

Mon Dec 19, 2022 6:43 pm

This is the 71 OE plate. Note the differences. Functionally, the tip of the arm is the important difference. There is no cut and the tip has better bearing surface - no sharp edges. I’m sure the earlier plate (the one I posted earlier) that’s on the friend’s car will not work well with a release bearing once the centering ring was removed.

Mon Dec 19, 2022 6:57 pm

Different design, the other is a 9 spring.

Mon Dec 19, 2022 9:11 pm

I honestly don't remember if the pressure plate originally in my 1971 was 9-spring or not, just remember that it had three arms and no center ring. I can't remember if that pressure plate is now in my box of parts either, I just know that when I rebuilt that 1971 engine to go into my 1970 sedan in 2016-2017, that I couldn't use its pressure plate because it had no center ring. I had to buy a new PP with a center ring

And apparently I didn't save the center ring from my other 3-arm pressure plate when I had to remove its center ring when I moved the 1835cc engine from my 1970 sedan into my 1971 convertible about 2005.

Got all that? The test is tomorrow !!!

Sat Apr 22, 2023 12:45 pm

After installing the early to late model throwout bearing conversion kit the throwout bearing body turns sideways when the clutch is depressed without the engine installed. I have a video of it doing this but it was too big to upload. Is this happening because the pressure plate is not there to keep it in place or is there something else going on that I should address before dropping the engine in?

Sat Apr 22, 2023 12:49 pm

The TO besting is crooked, so is it on the arms correctly or are the arms bent?

Sat Apr 22, 2023 1:08 pm

It starts out perfectly square then when we depress the clutch it turns.

Sat Apr 22, 2023 1:09 pm

I was able to shorten the video to where the Gallery let me upload it but now I can’t find it in the Gallery.

Sat Apr 22, 2023 1:12 pm

The throwout bearing is not on the arms straight. The left side is too high and/or the right side is too low. You need to get that straightened out. See Glenn's picture.

Sat Apr 22, 2023 1:19 pm

mikeonthebike wrote: The throwout bearing is not on the arms straight. The left side is too high and/or the right side is too low. You need to get that straightened out. See Glenn's picture.

It is on the arm straight to begin with then it turns when the clutch is depressed. I really wish I could figure out how to upload the 3 second video that shows it turning.

Sat Apr 22, 2023 1:36 pm

SoFlo1970BusTypeII wrote: After installing the early to late model throwout bearing conversion kit the throwout bearing body turns sideways when the clutch is depressed without the engine installed.

It doesn't look to me like you have the correct TO shaft for the late-style bearing. The arms on that are quite different from the earlier style. Look at where the cutouts in the shaft arms are in the photo Glenn posted.