TheSamba.com :: View topic - I guess the special ball joint don't fail

Sat Jun 02, 2007 4:40 pm

Interesting, my bug is lowered and I bought the Special Ball joints for lowered front ends. All I got was don't use them ,they are no good, they fail.

Well I posted 3 times asking if anyone that used these ball joints that had problems to post what exactly happened.

NO one posted. This is on two different NG's At this point I can believe it is hear say, but actually they don't fail.

Also what choice does someone have that lowered their bug. I have found even the 2 1/2" spindles put the upper ball joints at their limits if you use stock joints.

I am a Design Engineer and have learned to ask for the failed part and then testing and seeing what actually happened before issuing a recall. Alot of times it is the users error.

Even if the ball joints do fail. How low was the car and at what extreme of an angle was the joint.

Joe

Sat Jun 02, 2007 4:56 pm

WTF, if you lower with spindles the ball joints are at the exact same angle as if you are using regular spindles. Lowered ball joints are SOMETIMES needed if you turn the torsion leaves A LOT, this places the trailing arms upwards, and the ball joint studs at an extreme angle which can stress the BJ when compressed.

You do not need them in 95% of the time, and never if your only lowering method is lowered spindles.

IMO they were a marketing ploy by a manufacturer to sell product by scaring people into thinking they HAD to have them or you'd crash your car. It's nothing like this

John
Aircooled.Net Inc.

Sat Jun 02, 2007 5:30 pm

Thanks John I appriciate your reply.

Joe

Sat Jun 02, 2007 8:13 pm

John,
I know everyone says with the Dropped Spindles everything stays the same, but I am doing my ball joints as we speak and where the upper meets the Steering knuckle it sure looks like the ball joint is now at a more extreme angle foward. Lets think about this. The front drops at a more pronouned angle and meets the steering knuckle, the arm has got to be in a different positon. I don't see how at that one location it can stay the same as a level car.

Correct me if I am wrong. That is why I went to the Specials, the stock joint were at it's most foward extreme position.

JOe.

Sat Jun 02, 2007 9:34 pm

the ball joints do not know where the wheel is, as far as they are concerned there is no change.

John
Aircooled.Net Inc.

Sun Jun 03, 2007 7:40 am

I did some search on this and back in 2001 you actually answered this and a few time in between.

OK, thanks,
Joe

Sun Jun 03, 2007 5:02 pm

Install your arms and spindle without the torsion leeves and move it up all the way. Don´t forget to turn it and you will see where the limit is.

Sat Apr 05, 2008 8:04 pm

I might be bringing up an old post..

As far as the special lowered type balljoints go.. I have a set on my car and they are too tight. Go figure, they are made in Taiwan.

The spindles were VERY hard to turn with nothing attached to them while the beam was in a vice on a bench. I thought since they were new they would be like this for a while until they "broke in". Apparently not.

Now when I drive the car, its hard to steer and it makes driving difficult, since when you turn a corner it will not correct itself but continue in the direction you turned. In other words, I can turn a corner and let go of the steering wheel and the car will continue to go in circles. This makes driving in high wind difficult, especially since my 2nd brand NEW TRW steering box has plenty of slack. I know the slack is not in the tie rod ends, because those are new too.

I know the ball joints were installed correctly, as I had them professionally installed by a reputable VW mechanic.

The whole reason I decided to repair the front end was because it used to shake violently at 50mph. The tie rod ends were worn out, the steering box had slack in the pitman arm shaft, the damper was no longer working, and I wanted to add disc brakes and adjusters. One whole new front end later, and it drove worse than it did with the worn out one. Minus the shaking. It seems my old worn out parts were better off than the new ones. I hate the quality of aftermarket replacement parts.

Sat Apr 05, 2008 8:36 pm

even with dropped spindles your caster will change if you dont lower the rear as well... with just 2.5 drop spindles you dont need the special ball joints. A 3" drop with a beam still doesnt need them ask Glenn, they are basically made for hoodrides :wink:

after i lowered my car 2.5 with dropped spindles my steering would not return well, (i had like a 3" lift in the back with baja coilovers) put stock shocks back on and no more wander or slow return

Sat Apr 05, 2008 9:08 pm

I didn't lower my car with drop spindles, I cut the beam and welded in the screw type adjusters. The ONLY thing you are changing with drop spindles is raising the wheel. But with the adjusters you are changing the geometry of the control arms.

But my problem was that the spindles were very hard to turn; the lowered type balljoints were made too tight and do not function properly. You need to use both hands to be able to turn a corner. Then you must turn the wheel back to center because it will not center itself.

Oh btw.. It doesn't matter if I set the adjusters low or at stock height, it will steer hard both ways. I think I just got a bunch of new junky aftermarket parts.

Sun Apr 06, 2008 12:01 am

yeah you definitely have a problem with something else besides your ball joint angle or caster, but incorrect caster does cause the symptoms you're mentioning just not that extreme if you only lowered 2.5 inches,

I was mainly responding to the previous posts that said drop spindles dont affect anything. any lowering or raising changes the angle of the spindle in relation to the ground unless you lower the front and the rear equally

Sun Apr 06, 2008 4:24 pm

We tried to install "lowered ball joints" in buggy we were building and we didn't ever get the new ones off the press... They self destructed while trying to install them into arms. When we did get one into arm, it would not move, it was a exercise in futility... Everybody we talked to said, "just use stock ones" even with lowered buggy.... Lowered buggy has "stock" ball joints and front end is just fine.

If you are using lowered spindles, there is no need for lowered ball joints.

Dale

Sun Apr 06, 2008 4:50 pm

damn engineers over thinking the simplest of things :lol:

Sun Apr 06, 2008 5:25 pm

I don't know guys, I started this post and the reason I did was because I needed new ball joint and when I saw the stock joint was at it's max I figured the specail ball joints for lowered cars would be a great idea since the stock had no more to go. Well I put them in and yes they were a bit hard to turn but I like it. MY car returns on turns, it is just tight and makes me feel more secure. I have 2 1/2" dropped front spindles and stock height rear. To be honest my car with the stock ball joints on the dropped front end lasted 10 years no problems. So seeing some guys have problems I would use stock. I guess I was lucky????

Sun Apr 06, 2008 5:59 pm

when i drop the front of my car(air ride) the stock balljoints bottom out in the slot about the time the framehead flange touches the asphault.

Sun Apr 06, 2008 9:59 pm

nextgen wrote: Well I put them in and yes they were a bit hard to turn but I like it. MY car returns on turns, it is just tight and makes me feel more secure. I guess I was lucky????

Yes, you are lucky. I can turn a corner and let go of the steering wheel and it will continue to go in circles. It will not straighten itself out. :( I thought surely after a year of driving they would loosen up, but no such luck. So now I have to replace my balljoints. Again. I think this time I'm going to buy the control arms with the stock balljoints already pressed in.

Mon Apr 07, 2008 8:02 pm

White bug I agree 100% if you are going to replace the ball joints it is a no brainer to get them in the arms already.

Mon Apr 07, 2008 9:08 pm

72whitebug wrote: nextgen wrote: Well I put them in and yes they were a bit hard to turn but I like it. MY car returns on turns, it is just tight and makes me feel more secure. I guess I was lucky????

Yes, you are lucky. I can turn a corner and let go of the steering wheel and it will continue to go in circles. It will not straighten itself out. :( I thought surely after a year of driving they would loosen up, but no such luck. So now I have to replace my balljoints. Again. I think this time I'm going to buy the control arms with the stock balljoints already pressed in.

I was under the impression that that symptom was cause by lack of castor?

Mon Apr 07, 2008 10:20 pm

koolkarmakombi wrote: 72whitebug wrote: nextgen wrote: Well I put them in and yes they were a bit hard to turn but I like it. MY car returns on turns, it is just tight and makes me feel more secure. I guess I was lucky????

Yes, you are lucky. I can turn a corner and let go of the steering wheel and it will continue to go in circles. It will not straighten itself out. :( I thought surely after a year of driving they would loosen up, but no such luck. So now I have to replace my balljoints. Again. I think this time I'm going to buy the control arms with the stock balljoints already pressed in.

I was under the impression that that symptom was cause by lack of castor?

Think of caster as riding a bicycle with the handlebars turned 180 degrees so the front forks are angled in. It makes it handle real "darty", but when you turn the handlebars the correct way the forks are angled out, and it handles smoother.

I had my beam in a vice after bolting the spindles to the balljoints. I nearly had to use a cheater pipe to turn the spindles. Also my car doesn't get easier to turn when the front is jacked up. Caster has nothing to do with that...