TheSamba.com :: View topic - Nickies

Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:00 am

I'm with Marty....

If the whole freaking place erupted in flames tomorrow I'd give all my employees the day off to watch it birn on CNN.

Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:24 am

http://wardsautoworld.com/ar/auto_boring_trutheverybodys_ideas/

This article was published in wardsautoworld a bit ago, I thought it might explain a little about coatings and shed some light some very old technology and some new ones. The discussions about thermal co-effienants and expansion are not relavent in the this discussion because we are using simular materials which even when the silicon level of the aluminum is increased to improve it's durability it's not enough to increase it co-effient to believe that either one of the companies is in the metalurgy business and is building engines and parts as a sideline is insane. The Nickies are great but definatly not the only alternative. And this other fellow who thinks he is the only authority on VW Type 4 engines..... thats just sad..

Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:58 am

WOW owen,
That is a very strong and accusatory post, especially coming froma a long time, (nope, strike that), regular poster( nope wrong again)

You might want to be a little more proactive by researching the argument at hand further before posting. Otherwise you could be called out for trolling.

Rob

Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:06 am

M-Owen wrote: The discussions about thermal co-effienants and expansion are not relavent in the this discussion because we are using simular materials which even when the silicon level of the aluminum is increased to improve it's durability it's not enough to increase it co-effient to believe that either one of the companies is in the metalurgy business and is building engines and parts as a sideline is insane.

Whatever point you just tried to make was absolutely lost on the fact that you don't know how to punctuate.

So...what exactly were you trying to say?

Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:18 am

stripped,
I do not think that owen realized that the thermal coeff of the Al based nickies would be a real difference from the stock Fe cylinders, and therefore thought that that part of the discussion was a waste of time.

That's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

(I am leaning toward the opinion that owen is trolling, and did not have the time to punctuate. In a hurry to get back to his/her normal screenname maybe?)

Rob

Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:24 am

helowrench wrote: stripped,
I do not think that owen realized that the thermal coeff of the Al based nickies would be a real difference from the stock Fe cylinders, and therefore thought that that part of the discussion was a waste of time.

That's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

(I am leaning toward the opinion that owen is trolling, and did not have the time to punctuate. In a hurry to get back to his/her normal screenname maybe?)

Rob

It certainly doesn't clear up any interpretation of the last one-third of that sentence...

Wed Oct 24, 2007 12:45 pm

I am not trolling, but I was a little in a hurry. I started writing and had to tend to a unplanned meeting, nor was I trying to ruffle any feathers. I just don't understand why a simple question turned into means for a builder and a manufacturer to defend there products. The point I was making was that there is no new technology here in the products that are being discussed so why pretend there are new patents that have to be protected?

Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:28 pm

M-Owen wrote: I am not trolling, but I was a little in a hurry. I started writing and had to tend to a unplanned meeting, nor was I trying to ruffle any feathers. I just don't understand why a simple question turned into means for a builder and a manufacturer to defend there products. The point I was making was that there is no new technology here in the products that are being discussed so why pretend there are new patents that have to be protected?

No, you're right. Nikasil plated cylinders are not new technology, nor are they new to aircooled applications. But LN's cylinders are UNIQUE to our engines. You seem to confuse whether technology is "new" with whether the technology is "unique."

Do you suggest that, simply because the technology is old, somebody could go look up expansion rates, piston-to-cylinder clearances, and headstud torque specifications in a book? Sure, there might be some information out there that may provide a range of acceptable values, but none necessarily being optimal.

OTOH, the LN Nickies cylinders are unique to our ACVWs; expansion rates, piston-to-cylinder clearances, and headstud torques (as well as headstud materials) have already been researched and developed, and is proprietary to LN's product. When I buy LN's cylinders, I get the set complete and ready to run; I do not need to research any of this information because it has already been done by the developer of the product. When I buy Nikasomething-plated cast aluminum cylinders from China, I don't receive any of this information. As such, I need to figure it out, or otherwise take a chance using an untested specification and risk failure. Why in hell should Jake or Charles provide information that they've worked for to aid a manufacturer/importer who is attempting to undercut a UNIQUE product? What obligation do they have to give a somebody information that is typically provided to paying customers, at a premium?

I do not own LN's Nickie cylinders, but my engine showcases several UNIQUE and PROPRIETARY parts and modifications. These parts and modifications cost me a good sum of money, and while they are not patented, I at least respect and value those that developed the technology for my application enough to not give away the specifications. If a cheaper Chinese-made alternative suddenly hit the market, do you think I would share the specifications I have on my set-up with Joe Schmo who is trying to get his Chinese parts to work? Because, hey, the technology certainly isn't new. The answer is "F*ck NO." You're absolutely stupid to think otherwise.

Expansion rates, piston-cylinder clearances, and headstud torques for cast-iron cylinders is common and available for our engines. But, as it stands, the only people who have information about Nikasil-plated aluminum cylinders for our engines are Jake and Charles. If you want that information, it costs about $3200, and you get a free set of Nikasil-plated cylinders, JE pistons and ARP headstuds with that info. If you're trying to make a set of Chinese "Nickoffs" work, then don't expect that information for free.

Wed Oct 24, 2007 3:35 pm

Stripped66 wrote: If you're trying to make a set of Chinese "Nickoffs" work, then don't expect that information for free.

Don't expect any help from the Chinese when your engine blows, either. :wink:

Wed Oct 24, 2007 5:03 pm

I don't understand what the chinese have to do with this thread. Please explain the fixation.

Wed Oct 24, 2007 5:33 pm

[email protected] wrote: That said, even if it isn't my fault or my problem, I make it mine - I always try to make things right and bend backwards to warranty repairs far beyond the warranty on plating, even if it is years after the initial purchase. I am trying to make an honest living and don't need any bad karma on my conscience.

I sure hope that's true, Charles. I ate it on the Birals. Someday I might want a set of Nickies, but I want to be sure that the thousands I spend on them will be covered next time.

Wed Oct 24, 2007 5:50 pm

Those Birals were a JOKE and the money should be refunded....

Press on fins / shrunk on fins :roll:

Wed Oct 24, 2007 5:56 pm

M-Owen wrote: I don't understand what the chinese have to do with this thread. Please explain the fixation.
http://www.aapistons.com/ArticleShow.asp?ArticleID=254
made in china

Wed Oct 24, 2007 6:11 pm

Type 5 Joe wrote: Those Birals were a JOKE and the money should be refunded....

I have a set of 94 long Biral Babies from the initial run that have been sitting on the shelf till now, currently being installed in a 2387. I've never heard anything bad about them, but come to think of it I've never heard from anyone who's run them period.

Part of an email from LN-

"The biral project was a good idea, they worked REALLY well! The
biggest problem was their manufactuing cost, since at a price of $999,
we were loosing money. They would have had to be around $1250 to
$1500, and by that point, there is no point, since Nickies are just a
fraction of the cost more.

"With our stacked plate design, we incorporated a press fit
interferance that would have required cylinder temperatues in excess
of 550F to separate the fins from the liner. We also keyed the fins so
that they couldn't wander, like the cast ones do. In all, there was a
lot of labor involved in assembling the birals, then prepping them for
use, such as boring out and honing. Each liner had to be notched and
keyed for the fins, requiring countless jigs and fixtures, and endless
setup. Then the fins were stacked on a dummy liner w/o interference,
then installed in our pressing fixture with a keyed and notching
liner, then 20 tons of pressure forced the dud liner out and was
replaced with the good liner. Liners were also coated with thermal
transfer compound, about $10/oz, to further increase conductivity.
Once finished, cylinders were blasted to stress relieve the surfaces
and increase cooling capacity. Cylinders were bored out, one at a
time, then installed in our honing torque plates, where 8 cylinders
got finished at one time. As you can probably already see, this
process was a nightmare."

So I am interested in any experience you may have had with them.
Thanks.

Wed Oct 24, 2007 6:25 pm

I would never buy something of a design like this.... I just feel bad for Mark, he is obviously not happy.... And he always makes his customers happy.

Oh well, it's his Deal. I just stated how I felt, he should be able to refund them for his money or credit towards some nickies would be fair.

Wed Oct 24, 2007 6:31 pm

No, they worked, and they did run cooler than an iron cylinder, no question.. but when it came time to get some support, there wasn't much, and Shad was long gone. Charles had no materials to help me out.

My head temps were about 325 most of the time, up to maybe 350 during high duty and up to 375 at the track. The problems I had couldn't be fixed without materials, which, but the time I had problems, just weren't there.

Fortunately, the Nickies don't have stacked fins, and there isn't much to go wrong with them but the coating if set up right, from what I can see.

Kyle, if you need details, I can provide it, but I realize that this thread is about Nickies, and though I stray, the whole topic strayed into some comments that I felt I wanted to comment on myself. Let's not take this thread into a "what happened to the Birals" thread, just wanted to say that SUPPORT IS EVERYTHING. It just stands to reason that the absentee support of Chinese made products is pretty universal.. the distributor would like to blame the manufacturer, but it is his bread and butter, and it's not likely that the manufacturer is going to suck it up with the low margins they must obviously run to sell the junk parts to cheap.

Wed Oct 24, 2007 6:33 pm

Type 5 Joe wrote: I would never buy something of a design like this.... I just feel bad for Mark, he is obviously not happy.... And he always makes his customers happy.

Oh well, it's his Deal. I just stated how I felt, he should be able to refund them for his money or credit towards some nickies would be fair.

They are long gone, Joe. I just want Charles to stand up firm for products LN sells - it's (Nickies) a great technology ported to our engines.. I hate to see anything other than good support. I'd buy Nickies if I had thousands to throw around. I bought them at a transitional point in the company's history AFAIAC.. and got a little of the effects of it.

Wed Oct 24, 2007 6:35 pm

Jake Raby wrote: I'm with Marty....

If the whole freaking place erupted in flames tomorrow I'd give all my employees the day off to watch it birn on CNN.

lol I believe you would Jake.

Wed Oct 24, 2007 7:11 pm

M-Owen wrote: I don't understand what the chinese have to do with this thread. Please explain the fixation.

Because there are only TWO sources of aluminum, Nikasil plated cylinders available for the aircooled VW...those from LN Engineering, and those made in China.

If you are asking about expansion rates, piston/cylinder clearances, or headstud specifications, then you are either going to receive that information when you purchase a set of LN's Nickies, or you are trying to figure out how you're going to run a set of the Chinese version. That's it! The only game in town is LN versus the Chinese. If you're asking for information, there's only one way you're gonna get it.

Get it? If you're gonna come out and play, at least know what the heck is going on :roll:

Wed Oct 24, 2007 7:43 pm

:oops:
I put up a link to birals from china didn't I?
I think these are the ones I should have linked to in the first place
http://0071d09.netsolhost.com/vw_piston_cylinder.htm