TheSamba.com :: View topic

Sun Jul 06, 2008 11:53 am

OK
I'm sitting here watching the F1 race, and they turn those motors 19,000 RPM! :shock: and was wondering what is the fastest a T1 can turn? At the Wynn hotel here in town they have a Ferrari dealership and they have parts from Schumacher's old car for sale and there was a piston and rod from a V10 on a fancy plak and there were no ring grooves on the piston, do you think the tolerances are so tight they can run with out rings?

Earthquake

Sun Jul 06, 2008 11:57 am

I've seen a few of them turn upwards of 9,000 personally. Don't know why anyone would want to do that to a boxer engine, though.

As for the display at Wynn, I think they just clean them up so they're all pretty and junk. Last I heard, some of the teams' engines use only 2 rings.

Sun Jul 06, 2008 12:44 pm

here's a pic of a ferrari piston & rod,

you can see the rings

Sun Jul 06, 2008 12:53 pm

An engine built with factory tolerances can do about 5500 for a only a short time. If you get a c/w crankshaft and have it balanced and cams heads and carbs to suit then you can rev as high as you are correctly balanced. (9000rpm? I have a stocker-plus so I don't rev THAT high.)

Sun Jul 06, 2008 1:59 pm

Here is video of our Land Speed Record holding 1500cc TI engine spinning 9,000 RPM on the RAT dyno. This engine runs 13:1 CR and makes north of 180 HP N/A.

It's longevity is superb, it has only been freshened up twice in the past 4 years and runs north of 6,500 RPM in every gear while blasting through the standing mile.

Sun Jul 06, 2008 2:14 pm

well jaycee pushrods are rated 10,000RPM and jaycee makes some of the best shit around... so id say 10? hah

Sun Jul 06, 2008 2:55 pm

When the Berg's ran the black 67 in Super Street (94mm stroke x 95mm bore), it would turn 10,500 in first gear and 9,500 in 2nd through 4th. Bryan Hyerstay's G/Dragster with a 1679cc VW engine turns in excess of 10,000 RPM too.

Sun Jul 06, 2008 3:45 pm

You should look at bore to stroke ratios, F1 engines have very short strokes, the less distance the piston has to travel the slower its speed.

If you start building a vw engine with a 40mm stroke crank it could achive very high revs.

Sun Jul 06, 2008 4:12 pm

Exactly..
Our latest Land Speed project uses a 58mm crankshaft to attain it's power range, but this one is based on a 356 engine. We hope to make it to Bonneville with this one this year.

I am designing the roller cam for our 2.0 liter competition engine this week, it also uses a 58mm crankshaft coupled to a 105.07mm bore size giving 2011cc.. The rules changed in ECTA this year, allowing up to 2015cc for the 2 liter class.

I expect this TIV based engine to spin 11,000 RPM and should be good for 160 MPH in the Peanut Special. At that level valve control is a real challenge, but we'll cross that bridge when we come to it. I am using the Porsche 911 2.200 rod journal coupled to Pankl Titanium 911 rods, strutted pistons and making every part as light as possible, including taking 4 pounds off the crankshaft.

Sun Jul 06, 2008 4:18 pm

I had a drag only Ghia that turned 8,000 rpm, and it takes a while to get used to hearing a VW engine turn that high.

Built right, with the right valve train, and tranny gearing, it can do it.

But each season, it was rebuilt.

.

Sun Jul 06, 2008 4:25 pm

I use to take my daily driver past 8300+ rpms but then I dropped the rpms down to 7200rpms and ran the same ET's and MPH. Last year I was running 11.90's shifting at 7200rpms in my street car.

We have one of the longest pushrod engines so high rpms is just asking for trouble. I know many guys doing damage using aluminum pushrods due to major flexing at high rpms. Valve float and bounce is probably a contributor to some problems but many going back to chromoly never go back to aluminum flexers. Milder street rides will benefit from aluminum though.

Sun Jul 06, 2008 4:50 pm

Anyone ever built a set of overhead cam heads for these things?

Hmm... 8)

Sun Jul 06, 2008 5:40 pm

stealth67vw wrote: When the Berg's ran the black 67 in Super Street, it would turn 10,500 in first gear and 9,500 in 2nd through 4th. Bryan Hyerstay's G/Dragster with a 1679cc VW engine turns in excess of 10,000 RPM too.
I'm pretty sure that during the MC wars in NHRA in the early 80s, Klingaman and Smith were spinning their 1776s to between 10 and 11k.

Sun Jul 06, 2008 5:44 pm

Mackteck
What kind of Ferrari motor is that from ,looks a little big to be from a 2.4L F1 motor. The one I saw was only about 70mm in dia.

Earthquake

Sun Jul 06, 2008 6:15 pm

I ran a 2386 motor on alky that didnt stop pulling till 9800 but she would go way farther than that, i just didnt want to because the power would lay over

Sun Jul 06, 2008 9:50 pm

Bill271 wrote: I ran a 2386 motor on alky that didnt stop pulling till 9800 but she would go way farther than that, i just didnt want to because the power would lay over

Where do you run your car at? Do you have pictures? Are you in Hot VW mag?

Sun Jul 06, 2008 10:05 pm

No i dont think the car ever made it to hot vws but it was in vw trends, couple of years back. we ended up losing that eng the crank came apart in 4 pieces, and i cannot say anything bad about it dms welded 14:5 and it did its job!

Sun Jul 06, 2008 10:06 pm

Terry Cloyd wrote: Bill271 wrote: I ran a 2386 motor on alky that didnt stop pulling till 9800 but she would go way farther than that, i just didnt want to because the power would lay over

Where do you run your car at? Do you have pictures? Are you in Hot VW mag?

Carlsbad,and palmdale

Mon Jul 07, 2008 2:33 am

earthquake wrote: Mackteck
What kind of Ferrari motor is that from ,looks a little big to be from a 2.4L F1 motor. The one I saw was only about 70mm in dia.

Earthquake

This is from a 3L V10, which if using the same bore -stroke ratio would be exactly the same size as current 2.4L v8.
regarding the original question ,mean piston speed is a product of stroke and rpm with current maximum MPS being about 25M/s
eg. f1 engine turning 19000rpm with a stroke of 40mm = 0.04mx2 x 19000/60 = 25.33m/s
now take a road car engine with a stroke of about 80mm gives you max revs of about 9500

in jake's engine above, with 58mm stroke and 11k rev limit his mean piston speed is: .058*2* 11000/60=21.2 M/s ....pretty high for such large pistons.
also conventional valve springs contol of valve float is about 12000rpm , above this you need desmodronic or gas springs