TheSamba.com :: View topic - 50 degree I-4 install hydraulic engine mounts

Wed Jan 27, 2010 4:44 pm

It's the SA 5 crossbar,yes?

Wed Jan 27, 2010 6:58 pm

BlackDogVan wrote: .....Adapting some Jetta Mk3 tdi mounts would be the same amount of work.
Something good & cheap from the big three woud be good to find.

or the first listing on this page?

http://www.germanautoparts.com/Volkswagen/Jetta/Engine/142/2

Wed Jan 27, 2010 9:54 pm

Ya the big 3 thought was before I saw how cheap the VAG parts were. I like how the "less expensive" non hydraulic mounts on that page are more money!

I'm really hoping Karl weighs in here. I think he's done a few of the overland kits with the hyd mounts & i'd love to hear his thoughts...

Wed Jan 27, 2010 11:12 pm

BlackDogVan wrote: Ya the big 3 thought was before I saw how cheap the VAG parts were. I like how the "less expensive" non hydraulic mounts on that page are more money!

I'm really hoping Karl weighs in here. I think he's done a few of the overland kits with the hyd mounts & i'd love to hear his thoughts...

I've done 5-cyl. Overland kits with their proper original mounts, and 4-cyl diesels using new OE style mounts, both work great. In fact I've run my conversion since 1998 with the stock OE diesel mounts, and cannot see any reason to change unless they become unavailable. Several vans I had in for service, converted elsewhere with hydro mounts, had no less vibration. The key in any motor mount success is to have everything lined up perfectly so the mount is not pre-stressed.

Thu Jan 28, 2010 3:55 am

When i swap the engine to 16v 9A engine code, this is a 144 mm connecting rods, with this connecting rods you can feel the vibration in the steering wheel and shifter. Now I switch only the engine block to ABA block, this block is 159 mm connecting rods and in the first ride no more vibration and now is a smooth ride. And this with the stock diesel engine mounts 50* engine

Thu Jan 28, 2010 4:02 am

anthonywesty wrote: When i swap the engine to 16v 9A engine code, this is a 144 mm connecting rods, with this connecting rods you can feel the vibration in the steering wheel and shifter. Now I switch only the engine block to ABA block, this block is 159 mm connecting rods and in the first ride no more vibration and now is a smooth ride. And this with the stock diesel engine mounts 50* engine

I have been hoping to find anecdotal evidence that the extra 17mm of rod length does reduce or even eliminate the I-4 vibration problems. If you have photos of the conversion they would be appreciated, were you able to do this conversion and not modify the engine lid?

For the record all VW inline engines had 144mm rods/deck height other than the ABA, including diesel. The only motor I'm not positive on rod length on is the 1.8T.

-Rob

Thu Jan 28, 2010 6:29 am

Robw_z wrote: I have been hoping to find anecdotal evidence that the extra 17mm of rod length does reduce or even eliminate the I-4 vibration problems.

From the A3 platform Bentley service manual:
Quote: Fig. 3 shows the ABA engine used in all 4-cylinder Jetta, Golf, GTI and Cabrio models sold in the USA. This 2.0 liter long-stroke engine was manufactured specifically for the North American market. The engine features good fuel economy and a broad torque range.

The ABA engine uses a cross flow cylinder head and a two-piece intake manifold with long intake runners for enhanced low-end torque. The long piston stroke combined with the heightened cylinder block helps depress engine vibrations by reducing the operating angles of the connecting rods.
I'd say this is better than anecdotal. It sounds like vibration reduction was one of the main design goals.

The next design step toward minimizing the vibration inherent in the inline 4 design is the addition of a contra-rotating balance shaft. Some newer VW engines have this, and I believe the 1.8T is among them.

Thu Jan 28, 2010 7:26 am

I own a 1.6TD with the '83 mounts and carrier bars and a 2.0ABA with the '82 mounts and carrier bars. The ABA transmits waaaayyyyy more vibration to the chassis, shifter, etc...

Thu Jan 28, 2010 7:57 am

Andrew A. Libby wrote: I own a 1.6TD with the '83 mounts and carrier bars and a 2.0ABA with the '82 mounts and carrier bars. The ABA transmits waaaayyyyy more vibration to the chassis, shifter, etc...

So do you think this has more to do with the motor or the carrier bar differences? I honestly don't even know what the differences are.

Theoretically the ABA should simply vibrate less, so...

Thu Jan 28, 2010 8:40 am

I used these mounts for awhile on my 50* TDI install, they are the saab turbo mounts. I cut off the stock hanger and made up a simple hanger from 4" angle to support these and welded them on in the same place. Had to make a custom mount for the passenger side since they didn't fit using the stock engine bracket.

More work than they are worth, IMHO. Prolly 2-3 times as stiff as stock DV mounts, I have since switched back to all stock. Still have these mounts and brackets and the custom engine bracket if you want them. 75$+ ship.

The only thing that has reduced vibration was getting the rotating mass balanced during the rebuild and not hanging the exhaust to the body (thanks A Libbey)

Thu Jan 28, 2010 8:57 am

The bar above is from an 83. Notice it is solid bolted to the Vanagon chassis. The 82 bar has rubber bushings at both ends and mounting brackets. You would think the 82 bar is better isolated. The other difference was the engine mount which can't be seen above. The 82 had a smaller engine mount and different mounting from the 83. I would also like to emphasize. My conversion runs down the road very smooth. There is a harmonic/vibration when going up through the gears at a particular rpm area. It is more pronounced in the lower gears. Not enough to dump it, but enough to spend some brain energy on. I have to believe the stock 82 L/S rubber engine mount has more load and weigh on it than it was designed for hence the reason for possibly upgrading it to something more suitable. Plus they are NLA from VWOA. cheers

Here is a photo of the LS 82 carrier showing the mounting to the chassis.

Thu Jan 28, 2010 9:08 am

Do it the easy way

Call Steve at the Autobahnsociety

and buy his mounts and bars.

I have his setup and its super smooth...like silk..just as smooth as the boxer I had.

http://theautobahnsociety.com/

Thu Jan 28, 2010 9:32 am

I can't read the part number on the actual mount. What is it? Agreed if someone is making something that will work in your application and is a quality part, that is a good route to go. In my case, the ALH 1.9 does not utilize any of the OE diesel engine brackets or oil pan, so it all needed to be custom made. Based on the picture you posted, I would have welded gussets on the flat plate that the mount sits on. There is a lot of weight for a flat plate to support over the long run. Do you have a picture of the L/S? I looked at their website, but it looks like their 1.9 diesel kit is at 15 degrees. Hard to tell from their picture. mark

Thu Jan 28, 2010 9:37 am

Kayakwesty's picture looks like a 50* Al oilpan with some sorta air scoop pan cooler.

Thu Jan 28, 2010 10:40 am

rsxsr wrote: I can't read the part number on the actual mount. What is it? ......

Neither can I but it looks like "190e". Autobahn mentions use of MB mounts.

Maybe one of these?

http://tinyurl.com/y97xb5x

"Anchor" brand:

http://tinyurl.com/yexk5n2

Pic of same? (off shore website)

Thu Jan 28, 2010 10:44 am

Quote: Kayakwesty's picture looks like a 50* Al oilpan with some sorta air scoop pan cooler.

That is a diesel oil pan with a Terry K air scoop ..it dropped the temps down...it works!

I'm not pimping Steve's work but I am...his mounts are bomber...already engineered and work.

Just makes sense to me...I see all the SmallCar parts for a Subie I see no difference ...in using Steve's.

my 2 cents....I think the ABA...In-line 4 setups...are the un-sung set up of vanagon engine conversions...you hear of Bostig, Subie's and other conversions...but I think you don't hear that much about the in-line four...just cause it works...its not fancy or sexy...it just works

He sells a nice simple exhaust system too...once you see it, its simple design is elligant

Sorry for the high-jacking

Give Steve a call it will speed up your work, make the install easier and keep the motor under the deck...mine runs smooth as silk..I love to hear it run back there...he installed the whole set-up...I'm very happy with it.

And he sells parts for the in-line conversion...think of him as the Smallcar of the in-line 4

He didn't pay me to say this...I think its just something for the Vanagon community to know so we can keep these money pits alive : )

Thu Jan 28, 2010 10:58 am

kayakwesty wrote: Quote: Kayakwesty's picture looks like a 50* Al oilpan with some sorta air scoop pan cooler.

my 2 cents....I think the ABA...In-line 4 setups...are the un-sung set up of vanagon engine conversions...you hear of Bostig, Subie's and other conversions...but I think you don't hear that much about the in-line four...just cause it works...its not fancy or sexy...it just works
and bolts up in a day :D

Thu Jan 28, 2010 11:04 am

Been doing some more digging. I really like how the Saab mount was fitted using the bulk of the stock carrier 82 Vanagon diesel bars. If you have these carrier bars and the bellhousing, it seems like a reasonable solution. I came across this photo. Saab 900 81-94 might be it. Saab part number from the one picture is 75 45 650 and appears to be a valid part number still.

Thu Jan 28, 2010 11:11 am

Kaiser Soze wrote: kayakwesty wrote: Quote: Kayakwesty's picture looks like a 50* Al oilpan with some sorta air scoop pan cooler.

my 2 cents....I think the ABA...In-line 4 setups...are the un-sung set up of vanagon engine conversions...you hear of Bostig, Subie's and other conversions...but I think you don't hear that much about the in-line four...just cause it works...its not fancy or sexy...it just works
and bolts up in a day :D

I think too many people equate ABA installs with Tiico & not the simplest, cheapest, easiest conversion. Period. Buddy did a 1.8 almost 10 years ago Pre samba, its ABA now, never been stranded, always starts, takes a BEATING, he loves it & has never had complaint.

Thu Jan 28, 2010 11:35 am

Robw_z wrote: Andrew A. Libby wrote: I own a 1.6TD with the '83 mounts and carrier bars and a 2.0ABA with the '82 mounts and carrier bars. The ABA transmits waaaayyyyy more vibration to the chassis, shifter, etc...

So do you think this has more to do with the motor or the carrier bar differences? I honestly don't even know what the differences are.

Theoretically the ABA should simply vibrate less, so...

I do not know what is(are) the cause(s) for the difference in vibrations. Certainly could be either. I have heard different information, but my firsthand experience is not conclusive. I have heard that the '82 bars in general result in more vibration, despite the added end bushes. I have also heard that the engine vibration isolation system is tuned to the 1.6 displacement and that a larger displacement will result in greater vibration. I do not have an opinion on either, but am just relaying my experience. My ABA hits a resonance at about 3100 rpms that causes multiple buzzes in the van including in the instrument cluster and the rear bed. I call it my upshift buzzer. :lol: