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Mon Sep 23, 2013 7:15 am

I didn't read the entire post! Thanks so much for the insight -- it looks I can make this work now. Again, thanks!

Mon Sep 23, 2013 12:19 pm

Synapse wrote: First, it looks like your [sic] using the 111955531 relay right. If I understand correctly you'll get standard intermittent but not programmable this way.
Aha! That explains why this new intermittent relay I got from BusDepot
http://www.busdepot.com/111955531
works, for intermittent functionality, but does not program. I sure wish BusDepot had pointed that out before I spent $120 on the thing. :roll:

Edit: See update below. I am back to using this one, because the new 357 955 531 ones do not work as plug and play.

Mon Sep 23, 2013 2:21 pm

There is a fair bit of work making the programmable ones work in an aircooled VW, they need an extra relay and wiring.
Far from plug and play.

Mon Sep 23, 2013 7:46 pm

Joel wrote: There is a fair bit of work making the programmable ones work in an aircooled VW, they need an extra relay and wiring.
Far from plug and play.

Couldn't you use the relay where the interval is the time between presses on the switch? It's part number is 357 955 531 or VW relay number 99. :D

Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:13 pm

No, as I said not without the extra relay and some added wiring.

I've got the "99" programmable 6 pin relay in my bug, it works totally different to the original aircooled 5 pin relays hence the need for an extra relay and wiring.

THe newer watercooled relays use a positive signal to turn the intermittent on, the old aircooled system uses a ground and it keeps the intermittent turned off instead.

Mon Oct 07, 2013 1:09 pm

Joel wrote: No, as I said not without the extra relay and some added wiring.

I've got the "99" programmable 6 pin relay in my bug, it works totally different to the original aircooled 5 pin relays hence the need for an extra relay and wiring.

THe newer watercooled relays use a positive signal to turn the intermittent on, the old aircooled system uses a ground and it keeps the intermittent turned off instead.
Ah, thanks for this, Joel. I managed to scrounge two of the later 357 955 531 relays, which earlier in this thread were mentioned as being replacements (marked on the end with a "99"). They do not work as plug and play -- to that I can attest. :(

So, now I am back to the one I got as BusDepot, which, though not programmable, does provide the intermittent function.

And I will soon have a couple of these "99" relays for sale. So confusing.

Mon Oct 07, 2013 3:53 pm

Hi John,

Yes unfortunately a lot of people go around saying those are plug and play which is only true on water cooled VWs and late Mexi bugs.

If you don't mind some electrical work the 99 relays can be made to work in air cooled VWs, I have one in my bug and the variable delay is such a nice feature to have, you just have to add some more wires and an extra relay.

Mon Oct 07, 2013 10:00 pm

Got a diagram or picture of what you did to make it work? I've been dinking off and on with my intermittent wipers and the 99 relay but haven't gotten it to cooperate.

Thanks!

Mon Oct 07, 2013 10:41 pm

I'll go you one better.

Heres the thread I did up about it.

http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=86544

Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:58 am

Good on ya, mate!

Tue Oct 08, 2013 8:37 am

Great!

I know what I'm going to be doing Friday...

Tue Oct 08, 2013 3:56 pm

Detail note on schematic

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/info/wiring/baybus_1975up_wiper_delay.jpg

Note that on the relay used in this model, the 'S' terminal actually has three states:

- grounded = disabled
- floating = intermittent sweep
- +12 vdc = immediately cancel intermittent sweep

This last state saves the wiper motor if you turn the wiper switch to 'fast' while an intermittent wipe is in progress, thus feeding power into the 'fast' and 'slow' motor brushes at the same time. This feature is needed because the intermittent wipe relay is spliced into the 53 wire instead of the 53e wire, which would have eliminated the problem.

Aussies, take note - useful for your relay also:
http://flowcon.us/td/special/wiper_intermittent_4_modified.jpg

Tue Oct 08, 2013 6:40 pm

Thanks guys.

telford dorr wrote:
Aussies, take note - useful for your relay also:
http://flowcon.us/td/special/wiper_intermittent_4_modified.jpg

Have you tried that out?
if you dig back through the intermittent relay threads someone had one wired up like that and it doesn't work with the 6 pin relays.
also 53M and 53S would need to be switches around to stop feedback to the wiper motor.

The 12 volt to the S wire is for the wash function.
It overrides intermittent or whatever speed is set on and makes the wipers do 3 wipes at low speed.

Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:33 pm

Joel wrote: if you dig back through the intermittent relay threads someone had one wired up like that and it doesn't work with the 6 pin relays.
Can't answer that without having seen the actual installation.

Quote: also 53M and 53S would need to be switches around to stop feedback to the wiper motor.
Pretty sure that the schematic is correct. The 53m pin on the relay is the power output. It feeds 53e on the switch, which then feeds 53 to the motor, but only when the switch is off or in the intermittent wipe position. It specifically disconnects the relay when the wiper switch is in the slow or fast position. This is important for the reason mentioned in the previous post.
The 53s relay terminal is an input which passes the park switch output to the wiper switch and to the motor so that it parks itself properly.

Quote: The 12 volt to the S wire is for the wash function.
It overrides intermittent or whatever speed is set on and makes the wipers do 3 wipes at low speed.
I was referencing the '75 bus schematic posted - different relay (111 955 531) than yours.

Wed Oct 09, 2013 12:09 am

telford dorr wrote: Joel wrote:
also 53M and 53S would need to be switches around to stop feedback to the wiper motor.
Pretty sure that the schematic is correct. The 53m pin on the relay is the power output. It feeds 53e on the switch, which then feeds 53 to the motor, but only when the switch is off or in the intermittent wipe position. It specifically disconnects the relay when the wiper switch is in the slow or fast position. This is important for the reason mentioned in the previous post.
The 53s relay terminal is an input which passes the park switch output to the wiper switch and to the motor so that it parks itself properly.

Would you have a copy of your wiring diagram, I'd be curious to see it.
I did a lot of research on the subject when I was setting up the variable delay system and looked at countless wiring diagrams and all of them were wired up with the relay 53S as being the signal from the switch and 53M as being the output to the motor which also makes sense given the letters.
I've not seen one other one different except for a Golf one from a questionable manual.
None of them had 53e wired differently like you suggest.

Here is the actual 72 onwards factory bus and bug intermittent diagram showing it wired up that same way.

Not trying to start a debate over it, just don't want to see people ruin their relays hooking them up wrong,
People have said the relay will burn out if you get 53S and 53M round the wrong way but it will just not work rather than burn out.

I'm not sure who has altered my original diagram but how my original diagram is laid out has worked for many people now.

telford dorr wrote: Joel wrote: The 12 volt to the S wire is for the wash function.
It overrides intermittent or whatever speed is set on and makes the wipers do 3 wipes at low speed.
I was referencing the '75 bus schematic posted - different relay (111 955 531) than yours.

It doesn't matter which relay it is, it does the same thing on both, just makes the wipers operate while the windscreen is being washed.

Wed Oct 09, 2013 10:44 am

Quote: I did a lot of research on the subject when I was setting up the variable delay system and looked at countless wiring diagrams and all of them were wired up with the relay 53S as being the signal from the switch and 53M as being the output to the motor which also makes sense given the letters.
You are completely correct on that point, and in fact, that is what's happening - but with a twist. The 53m wire to the motor passes through the wiper switch so that it can disconnect it when the switch is in the 'fast' position (needed) and the 'slow' positions (not really needed, but doesn't hurt). (e.g. it passes through in the 'off' and 'intermittent' position). The 53s input switches between the 'park' signal coming from the wiper motor and an internal 12 volt feeder, which provides the intermittent wipe function.

Quote: Here is the actual 72 onwards factory bus and bug intermittent diagram showing it wired up that same way.
Yes - similar to the bus link I posted, but with the washer stuff added.

Quote: Not trying to start a debate over it, just don't want to see people ruin their relays hooking them up wrong,
People have said the relay will burn out if you get 53S and 53M round the wrong way but it will just not work rather than burn out.
Not a debate, but a discussion. Correct on your point again. It will burn out because the intermittent relay would feed power from its 15 terminal backwards through the wiper switch and into the grounded motor park switch, if the motor is in the park position.

Quote: I'm not sure who has altered my original diagram but how my original diagram is laid out has worked for many people now.
If it's the one on my site, then I modified it to illustrate the concept. Both circuits will work, but mine protects things a bit better.

Mental exercise: Using the schematic of the factory bus wiper in your most recent post, trace the power to the wiper motor. Assume that the intermittent relay is active, feeding power from its 15 terminal to the 53m terminal, and onward to the 'slow' motor brush. Now assume the driver turns the wiper switch to 'fast'. This will feed power from 53a (12 volt feeder) to 53b, and on to the fast brush of the wiper motor. You will now have power on both the slow and the fast brush of the motor. The motor won't like that, and will retaliate by drawing much current.

Your options are: (1) don't do that, or (2) move the intermittent relay output away from a direct connection to the motor to the protected side of the wiper switch so that it can't happen, because as soon as he turns that switch, the intermittent relay output is disconnected from the slow motor brush.

Thoughts?

Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:01 pm

telford dorr wrote:

Quote: Not trying to start a debate over it, just don't want to see people ruin their relays hooking them up wrong,
People have said the relay will burn out if you get 53S and 53M round the wrong way but it will just not work rather than burn out.
Not a debate, but a discussion. Correct on your point again. It will burn out because the intermittent relay would feed power from its 15 terminal backwards through the wiper switch and into the grounded motor park switch, if the motor is in the park position.

I can confirm for the non-programmable intermittent relay that 53S goes to the switch and 53M to the motor and connecting them the wrong way around will burn out the relay. :oops: :cry:

In fact, in my case, it burnt out a track on the relay circuit board that I was able to repair by soldering a wire bridge across the break. :D

Thu Oct 10, 2013 4:00 pm

telford dorr wrote:
Mental exercise: Using the schematic of the factory bus wiper in your most recent post, trace the power to the wiper motor. Assume that the intermittent relay is active, feeding power from its 15 terminal to the 53m terminal, and onward to the 'slow' motor brush. Now assume the driver turns the wiper switch to 'fast'. This will feed power from 53a (12 volt feeder) to 53b, and on to the fast brush of the wiper motor. You will now have power on both the slow and the fast brush of the motor. The motor won't like that, and will retaliate by drawing much current.

Your options are: (1) don't do that, or (2) move the intermittent relay output away from a direct connection to the motor to the protected side of the wiper switch so that it can't happen, because as soon as he turns that switch, the intermittent relay output is disconnected from the slow motor brush.

Thoughts?

Everyday's a school day.

If you don't mind I'll add the modified diagram to my thread.

THe only thing I seem to recall is when the intermittent is running the relay only sends a quick pulse (about half a second) to the wiper motor, not powered for the entire wipe, which is just enough to make the wiper motor do a cycle on the park circuit power.

That is probably why the wiring is setup like it is so there is no risk of sending low and high power to the wiper at the same time, by the time the switch got from intermittent to high speed the power would be gone from the low speed.

Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:15 pm

Joel wrote: If you don't mind I'll add the modified diagram to my thread.
Not a problem. Clean it up if you want - my drawing tweak was a bit of a fast graphics hack, and could look much better.

Quote: The only thing I seem to recall is when the intermittent is running the relay only sends a quick pulse (about half a second) to the wiper motor, not powered for the entire wipe, which is just enough to make the wiper motor do a cycle on the park circuit power.

That is probably why the wiring is setup like it is so there is no risk of sending low and high power to the wiper at the same time, by the time the switch got from intermittent to high speed the power would be gone from the low speed.
I agree. The factory wired it the way they did for a reason, and I suspect that the probability of drive collision in the real world, using the factory wiper switch, is low enough that it's not likely a problem and they didn't worry about it. On the other hand, if you get lucky, a blown fuse is the likely result (bad in a rainstorm...).

The more likely place of needing this particular mod is those retrofit installations where an external switch or button (not the one on the wiper switch) is used to operate the delayed wipe. Here, the probability of electrical collision is very much greater, as the wiper switch could be in any position when the delayed wipe is activated. This mod will eliminate that electrical collision possibility.

This is the wiring method I used on my '71 bus (well, not exactly, as the wiper motor and switch are different, with different terminal numbers - but the methodology is the same), and you can operate switches in any combination with no ill effects.

Now, all that said, there remains a question of how this mod will affect the 'programmable' feature in the non-fixed-time type relays. My original one was a fixed time unit, and my current one is home-made (see http://flowcon.us/td/MiscAuto), as I'm kind of old school, and prefer a speed control knob.

Mon Jan 27, 2014 9:57 am

Installing Hella Intermittent Wiper Control, and...