TheSamba.com :: View topic - Recommendation on teflon wrist pin buttons.

Fri Jun 25, 2010 6:43 pm

what should i use teflon buttons or just use the regular stock clips. this motor will be driven everyday and it will be 2110.

thanks for any sugestons

Fri Jun 25, 2010 6:54 pm

Tru arc wrist pin clips is what i use.
( example) http://www.vwparts.net/BP4590-10.html

They're relatively cheap as you can see but are stronger than stock. Theres going to be some that say : ive used stock and np's or teflon buttons np's this and that. NP use what works for you. This is what works for me from 1600 to 2017 to my 2276 builds. Teflon has been said to score the cylinder walls. Whatever. I just use the $5 tru arcs.

Fri Jun 25, 2010 7:03 pm

alright thank you.

Fri Jun 25, 2010 9:01 pm

jfats808 wrote: Tru arc wrist pin clips is what i use.
( example) http://www.vwparts.net/BP4590-10.html

They're relatively cheap as you can see but are stronger than stock. Theres going to be some that say : ive used stock and np's or teflon buttons np's this and that. NP use what works for you. This is what works for me from 1600 to 2017 to my 2276 builds. Teflon has been said to score the cylinder walls. Whatever. I just use the $5 tru arcs.

It is the little things like this that make all the difference.

Fri Jun 25, 2010 11:01 pm

jfats808 wrote: Teflon has been said to score the cylinder walls.
Teflon is softer than cast iron, so therefore it is impossible for teflon to damage a cylinder.
What is possible is for grit to get imbedded in the teflon. Then that will hurt a cylinder. A proper oil filter, changed often will prevent that grit from floating around in the first place.

Sat Jun 26, 2010 1:25 am

I don't care what causes it. You will end up with 2 grooves on each side of the cylinder if you use the Teflon buttons. Do not use them on a daily.

Sat Jun 26, 2010 1:26 am

Yea. That's a no- brainer Bruce.

Sat Jun 26, 2010 7:54 am

If you need buttons to keep the pins in place, you have other serious problems. I used the cheap clipsthat came in the Mahle kit in the 1915 turbo, but true arcs are superior.

Sat Jun 26, 2010 11:29 am

Michael Fischer wrote: I don't care what causes it. You will end up with 2 grooves on each side of the cylinder if you use the Teflon buttons. Do not use them on a daily.
Any grooves on the cylinders is due to not changing your oil filter. Fix the real problem. The rest of the engine will also benefit.

Sat Jun 26, 2010 11:32 am

miniman82 wrote: If you need buttons to keep the pins in place, you have other serious problems.
What makes you think there's a problem? Teflon buttons are a method of keeping the wrist pin in its proper place. They are much easier to install, and they don't burr up the bore in the piston like your clips always do, so they are much easier to remove later on.

Sat Jun 26, 2010 12:05 pm

True arcs fit tight and I've never had them cause problems with the wrist pins. I did see the buttons make marks in the cylinder like Mike said earlier. Nothing hard about taking them tru arcs out. At least you can use them just about forever. Its all in what works for u.

Sat Jun 26, 2010 12:38 pm

Bruce wrote: miniman82 wrote: If you need buttons to keep the pins in place, you have other serious problems.
What makes you think there's a problem?

The reason pins work their way out of the piston can be due to not lining up the cylinder perfectly perpendicular to the centerline of the crankshaft, or just plain having sloppy rod bushings or work bores in the piston. If the pin is coming out there is a problem, they don't just walk out of there because they feel like it.

Quote: Teflon buttons are a method of keeping the wrist pin in its proper place. They are much easier to install, and they don't burr up the bore in the piston like your clips always do, so they are much easier to remove later on.

Clips only come out if there's something wrong, IMO their use means covering up something else. Either you're using them because you don't know how to check the things I mentioned above, or you do and you don't feel like fixing the problem. Either way, I don't like them.

Sat Jun 26, 2010 12:54 pm

The buttons weigh more than clips.
The buttons hold oil trapped inside the inner cavity of the wrist pin.
The buttons wear out your cylinders.

The only advantage to buttons is saving 5 minutes during engine assembly. NOT worth it!!

s

Sat Jun 26, 2010 1:15 pm

It's not the buttons that scratch, its the dirt and grit that gets imbedded into the teflon buttons.

Sat Jun 26, 2010 2:45 pm

Steve Arndt wrote: The buttons weigh more than clips.
The buttons hold oil trapped inside the inner cavity of the wrist pin.
The buttons wear out your cylinders.

Steve, put your engineering cap on. Teflon can't hurt a cylinder. It's the dirt in your oil that does the damage.

Everyone I know drills holes in their teflon buttons so any oil that gets in there can drain out.

Yes, teflon buttons weigh more than clips. However, if you are using full skirt type pistons like CIMAs, then you've already decided you don't care about the weight. Slipper skirt pistons weigh significantly less.

Sat Jun 26, 2010 3:19 pm

The wear partacles that may or may not become embedded in your buttons are coming from breaking in the rings and cylinder walls. the buttons are right next to the rings man!
I think the buttons are a fine idea for a race engine or any engine that gets torn down often. But for high mileage street engine what's the point?

Sat Jun 26, 2010 8:46 pm

I'm not sure what you guys are talking about when you speak of teflon buttons wearing the cylinders. I have to agree with Bruce here. I did a cam change on a daily driver 1776 with 45,000+ miles on it, and there were no wear marks on the cylinder from the buttons. The engine did however use the high end oil filters, either Mobil/K&N, and had the oil changed at 2000 mile increments.

Sat Jun 26, 2010 9:22 pm

[email protected] wrote: I'm not sure what you guys are talking about when you speak of teflon buttons wearing the cylinders. I have to agree with Bruce here. I did a cam change on a daily driver 1776 with 45,000+ miles on it, and there were no wear marks on the cylinder from the buttons. The engine did however use the high end oil filters, either Mobil/K&N, and had the oil changed at 2000 mile increments.

The point is Sir, that with clips you will never have problems that teflon buttons are a part of. I saw it once on a motor I was taking apart and didnt want it to happen again. I didnt like the cheapee clips that came with the set of P/C's so I use Tru arcs. NP so far. That process terminology is deductive elimination. The control measure was the fix- in this case Tru arcs that have no problem. Everyone is making this a pissing match about this and that. All the OP wanted to know was why not to use Teflon buttons or stock clips. Tru arcs win over the other two in all aspects.
End of story.

I would run the stock clips over the Teflon buttons.

Sat Jun 26, 2010 9:52 pm

jfats808 wrote: [email protected] wrote: I'm not sure what you guys are talking about when you speak of teflon buttons wearing the cylinders. I have to agree with Bruce here. I did a cam change on a daily driver 1776 with 45,000+ miles on it, and there were no wear marks on the cylinder from the buttons. The engine did however use the high end oil filters, either Mobil/K&N, and had the oil changed at 2000 mile increments.

The point is Sir, that with clips you will never have problems that teflon buttons are a part of. I saw it once on a motor I was taking apart and didnt want it to happen again. I didnt like the cheapee clips that came with the set of P/C's so I use Tru arcs. NP so far. That process terminology is deductive elimination. The control measure was the fix- in this case Tru arcs that have no problem. Everyone is making this a pissing match about this and that. All the OP wanted to know was why not to use Teflon buttons or stock clips. Tru arcs win over the other two in all aspects.
End of story.

I would run the stock clips over the Teflon buttons.

While I agree with you on this being a pissing match, I find it mildly amusing, and a little unsettling, how many here have something happen to them ONCE in who knows how many years of working with VWs and immediately swear off ever using a product.. EVERY product fails once in a while, especially if the user isn't diligent in maintaining it..

Personally, I have no experience with the teflon plugs, I've only ever used the stock clips, but I was hoping to find some usefull information in this thread as I was considering the teflon pieces for my first build. What I've learned so far is that you have to be especially careful with oil filtration with the teflon plugs, and that as normal, everyone on the Samba believes their opinion is better than everyone elses... :roll:

Sat Jun 26, 2010 10:02 pm

Matt thats the point. Once is all it takes for someone to learn in most cases what is a better product/component. Once is all it took for me in this case. Once is all it takes. I just wanna save this guy money in the long run from my experiences. What if this guy isnt running a filtration system? What now? Should he go buy a filtration system to run teflon buttons? Although i agree that having a full flow filter is awesome, its not needed to operate.