TheSamba.com :: View topic - 32/36 not idling right after removing top.

Wed Jul 14, 2010 10:45 pm

Haven't done much today. Shifted it so I could vacuum the engine bay before pulling the runners.

When i installed it the spring was still on there and the secondary was closing fine.It also snaps closed like it should when I look in the top. I need to pull the carb again anyway for that gasket.
The position on the adjuster seemed fine too. I didn't touch it.

It seemed a bit less deranged in its running today, but still not great. Machines can't heal, after all.

Any home media blasting attempts will have to wait until next week.

It idles okay but periodically bogs to the point of shutting off.
Giving the accelerator a blip results in a puff of smoke the batmobile would be proud of.

It has fresh oil in the right quantity now. Thought I should add that. At least the engine is nice and clean inside.

One thing I was curious about. If the thick paper gasket I used for the manifolds are indeed dry, is that a bad thing? What should I use on them?

I mean they have sealed fine the last year or two but I don;t know.

Thu Jul 15, 2010 4:14 am

Finally remembered to put the pic up.

Thu Jul 15, 2010 4:37 am

RatCamper wrote: If the thick paper gasket I used for the manifolds are indeed dry, is that a bad thing? What should I use on them?

I mean they have sealed fine the last year or two but I don;t know.

I would think dry would be fine, you just want nice even compression against the gasket.

Thu Jul 15, 2010 7:58 pm

Progress!

Pulled the carb again. The top gasket on it looks moist. Concerning. The float level is correct and the needle and seat are in good condition. No matter. If I can get the time next week I'm going for a drive to get a replacement.

I pulled the rubber base spacer off. there was a paper gasket under it. heh. It has been a couple of years after all.

All the runner boots seemed seated well. There was pooled fuel inside the 1/2 boots.

next I decided to check the 3/4 side manifold. as I went to unbolt it I noticed wetness on that little bit of exposed head under #3. Interesting.

Off came the runner. A couple of studs followed along with the nuts. No big deal. The stud holes are helicoiled anyway. Whoever had this head before me was a gorilla. I had to helicoil it after I had installed it and refitted the engine. not something I would ever recommend to anyone.

After pulling teh runner off I noticed the #3 side of the gasket was nice and wet too. The mating surfaces were still clean. Guess I'll be resurfacing the plate with glass and sandpaper again. Urgh. Its a horrible job doing that because of the shape.

Does anyone have the manifold nut torque? I haven't located my manual yet since moving house. A year almost exactly and half the stuff still hasn't been unpacked. What a year.

Something about the wet top gasket. I am still curious about that as the carb when removed doesn't leak a drop when fed fuel pump pressure.
Also regarding the pooled fuel etc. the fuel tank level is low enough that ic can't syphon. Ie i can remove the fuel hose from the carb and besides the fuel dump from the cartridge filter thing there is nothing.

When i head back out I'll grab the camera. I took photos but once again forgot to bring the camera in.

Thu Jul 15, 2010 8:29 pm

That carb look clean, compared to most , I just noticed that one of those enco carbs, see the double ring in the one vent.

Iwas wondering if you knew about glass and sand paper do it to the carb base and the intake, make sure the glass is on a hard surface.. The same method is how we resuface dirt bike heads. years ago I told a kid to do that on his, it didn't work, I get him to tell me the story,, well it seems a good show was on TV, gets the glass and paper floppy on the couch, watches the tube and works on the head ..

I lay a straight edge on the head, ithas a big ass arch in the center. Glass bends/flexes. just about the same as his head.

by wet top gasket, thats the one between the top and base.. could be from flooding, could be just from the engine wiggling.. when it's ideling look down inside, you should see no gas flow..

as far as pooling your over jetted, going by it running better with the idel jet swap.

what about the brake booster, unhook that thing while you do this..

Isee youhave the red boots, I've had nothing, but bad luck with those.. There few T 4 engines I have worked for other using this type carb, always end up with cracks,, the guy Isee having luck get the black cloth braided fuel hose, This is on sand rails which take one hell of a beating..

at the heads, there nothing wrong with using two gaskets. These gaskets grease them rub the the grease into paper, grease will act as a sealer, plus when you do take things apart the gasket will release easy, most time can be reused.

Fri Jul 16, 2010 1:53 am

towd wrote: That carb look clean, compared to most , I just noticed that one of those enco carbs, see the double ring in the one vent.

Oh yeah. I never actually noticed the double ring.
I wouldn't work on a dirty carb :)

Quote:
Iwas wondering if you knew about glass and sand paper do it to the carb base and the intake, make sure the glass is on a hard surface.. The same method is how we resuface dirt bike heads. years ago I told a kid to do that on his, it didn't work, I get him to tell me the story,, well it seems a good show was on TV, gets the glass and paper floppy on the couch, watches the tube and works on the head ..

I lay a straight edge on the head, ithas a big ass arch in the center. Glass bends/flexes. just about the same as his head.

Wow bet he wasn't happy.

I put the glass / mirror on either a bench or a table. Last time i did it either on the kitchen bench or the dining room table. Don't recall which.
My guess is the distortion is from one of the runners sitting in slightly the wrong spot and slowly warping the manifold flange until it reached its proper destination. It looks flat so the warping should only be really minor. Well that's my guess anyway. looks easy to fix. Only fun thing is that metal is HARD so it'll take a while.

Quote:

by wet top gasket, thats the one between the top and base.. could be from flooding, could be just from the engine wiggling.. when it's ideling look down inside, you should see no gas flow..

Yeah, the one between the top plate and base. That's true. I haven't seen anything coming out. Next time I have it back together I'll shine a torch down there. An LED one. Nice even light distribution. Will be able to see easily.

Quote:

as far as pooling your over jetted, going by it running better with the idel jet swap.

I'm going to get one of the smaller jets that some people with 1600DP and 1800 type4s seem to be using. because my smaller idle jet is close to their larger one I can be cheap about it for now. the jets are nearly $10 each so I won't muck around with fine increments of jets just yet.
Or maybe the idles are more. I don't remember.

Quote:
what about the brake booster, unhook that thing while you do this..

Done. it doesn't seem to leak anyway, but if I want to connect a vac gauge I have to disconnect the booster.

Quote:

Isee youhave the red boots, I've had nothing, but bad luck with those.. There few T 4 engines I have worked for other using this type carb, always end up with cracks,, the guy Isee having luck get the black cloth braided fuel hose, This is on sand rails which take one hell of a beating..

no cracks ...yet.
How do the bits of hose go on? Either I'm misremembering or the runners and base have different diameters.

Quote:

at the heads, there nothing wrong with using two gaskets. These gaskets grease them rub the the grease into paper, grease will act as a sealer, plus when you do take things apart the gasket will release easy, most time can be reused.

Really? Cool. I thought it was preferable to have thin or even no gaskets. The gasket paper I'm using was nearly 1mm thick when I made them. Might level the runner, grease the gasket and reinstall.

Mon Jul 19, 2010 6:54 pm

Been working on resurfacing the 3/4 runner. I figure it'll be done around 2015.
It has definitely changed shape since I did this for the original fitment.

Looks like I may have overtorqued up the ends a little, but it doesn;t explain most of the distortion. No matter, once I'm done it should sit flat with its new shape.
What gets me is #4 had far more distortion than #3, but #3 is the leaky one.

I'm looking forward to finishing this to see the results.

Another good bit of news is there is no fouling in the runners, so I don't think there is any leak back from the intake valves.

Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:52 pm

I would replace the float if you haven't done so already and make sure that the carb base screws, if any, are snug and the base to carb isn't warped. I seem to recall some of those models had a detachable base held on by two or three screws underneath them. A loose throttle base can be a source of leaks. So can an unvented tank that builds pressure when the gas in the tank expands during the heat of the day.

Mon Jul 19, 2010 10:49 pm

The hoses look just the same as the stock EFI ones, but they are getting them from a standard auto supply, there just a hair biiger ,, put a littl eoil on them slide all 4 on, you know the rest, when it all bolted down either work your ass off getting the end up on the alum manifold, or heat gun ..

a decent heat gun runs around $150 USD,, I found a hair dryer must be a 70's vintage vedal sesson ( sp?) style is like a heat gun, it puts out 1400 watts on hi.. 5 bucks. hey it works

if you ever do head into the big city and there's a industral supply you ask about silcone tubing ,, like used with turbo systems,

some guy just posted a pic of his new engine, It looked like thats whatwas used on his, ( blue) course they cost about the same as a years supply of gas.

I take it you have two bolt heads, if youhave the tools and don't mind the time, why not make some torque plates some what like whats on the cv's.. They did the same thing on Chevy valve covers, They would be like a horse shoe shaped washer. I'm sure you would need longer studs
.

Or somthing to think about make up a set of thick flanges weld those right to that intake, again longer studs an Old T1 trans case, th eside cover studs, great for longer intake studs.. but there a Bitch to get out .
There;s no I or D series weber with a seperate throttle base,, Those all have The Big S written on the side,

Tue Jul 20, 2010 9:21 am

My solution to the flimsy aftermarket runners that come with Weber/Holley carbs was to make my own out of FI runners. They later got converted to the single runner system I use now. I soon will be converting to the manifolds off of a T-127 single carb industrial engine. Being aluminium, they should really move the heat up.

Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:53 pm

The manifold plates on my runners don't seem flimsy. They are steel at least 6mm thick.

I just went and put it back on and used grease on my old gasket. this time i whipped out the torque wrench. 14 ft/lb is a lot more than I thought. I never bothered using teh torque wrench on these things. Because of limited space I used a ring spanner to help the nuts through part of the throw ehere I couldn;t engage the torque wrench. i was straining to turn the spanner!

no matter. i did that and chucked the carb back on with the paper gasket only and some grease.

The results were interesting. Vacuum may have been about the same, possibly less. hard to say. It was erratic. Not like a flutter, but twitchy. Seemed to correspond to when the engine was missing. I take that to be a good thing. I made a half-assed attempt at setting the idle so i could do vac readings. I think the idle is more stable. Hard to really say because of how insanely rich it is running.

I made it run a bit better after giving it a good rev and being treated to seeing scraps of charred paper towel shooting out the exhaust. oops. I must have shoved two towels into one of the intake ports. besides some idle popping, and big pops when I let off after revving it, and of course thick clouds of chokingly thick smoke it seems to be running better.

next I'll do the 1/2 side runner.

Working on getting the jets. there was a slight snag with the invoice which I am waiting on getting rectified so i can pay. i hate buying via eBay!
at least I ordered a nifty Weber Carburettors sticker to go along with it.

Fri Jul 23, 2010 8:14 pm

Another update.

Been working on resurfacing the 1/2 runner. I am kind of confused by all the crap accumulated around the ports. Possibly a nice leak attracting much.
Anyway that side runner is warped. Getting there.

Picked up the needle and seat. Over $35. Ouch. A float will cost me about $80 so I'm going to buy a set of precision scales to check the current one before making that investment on a possibility.
In the mean time I might just put some fuel in the bowl and chuck the float in to make sure it still is a float and not a sink.

Guess I'll have to redo the float max and min again. Fun.

The jets should be here some time next week.

Fri Jul 23, 2010 10:17 pm

Update:

Needle and seat installed. Amazingly the float levels were spot on.

The new needle and seat are different.

The old seat has drillings around the sides. Probably for freer fuel flow, although I imagine it would also affect the suction effect of the fuel passing over the needle.

Old and new seats from the top. The new one has a far smaller aperture. Doesn't bother me much. this is the right part for the 2.0L Ford motor the carburetor came from so the flow rate should be fine.

The 1/2 runner. Using a coarser paper to wear it down because it was more warped than the other.

When that is all done it is time for another test.

Fri Jul 23, 2010 11:41 pm

where the tubes weld into the flange. see what you can do to make sure there isn't any pin holes in those welds.. when I set up a turbo on the wife's buggy. I bought a mikuni and intake. The intake was trick, it was steel, some of the nicest welding you could ever ask for. I screwed with jetting for a good two weeks, went over and over everything I could think of, just like your doing. finally on day I saw a wet spot under the intake WTF, took every thing apart. Thinking this thing has to be flooding.. I mean I have a magnifying glass looking.. don't see a thing wrong. I turn just at the perfect angle to the sun while looking inside the manifold, holey shit the welds are full of pin holes. who ever made that thing never checked for holes. all a guy had to do was hold it up to a light, turn it so the inside had a shadow, Bingo there's a 1000 tiny holes. $150 piece of shit ..

Now when you say $35 for the needle and $80 for a float. That aussie $$ right ? You don't need a float, These carbs are almost foolproof about the only thing that goes bad is the accelerator pump or they get plugged up.. you need idle and main jets..

Then there the accelerator nozzle/squirter . once you get to the point that it's not so rich. Then comes the famous flat spot. I'm not the one that figured this one out. The guy that did, you can count on any thing says about a vw engine as being the word of God.. but here's the deal you have to buy one more toy. Jet drills .. now that you have a set of drills and the flat spot, determine what size the nozzle by using your brand new drill set. increase the size until the flat spot is gone
If you did buy jet drills, you could get like a 105 then just keep enlarging that until you had what you need, instead of having to buy ten jets. Theres one more thing never trust what the size printed on the jet is, you never know someone may have drilled that jet. should you ever get drills, get in the habit of sanding off the old numbers..

You may read these site on the carb, they will say more squirt won't do anything , there full of shit ..

Sat Jul 24, 2010 1:15 am

Never thought to check for pinholes. I'll have to check. I really hope there aren't any!

I just noticed (and probably noticed in the past) the runners have an interesting offset. I'm wondering if i swap the 1/2 with the 3/4 if I might move the carburetor back a bit. I'll check that out later.

The money was in AUD towd. It's not much different to USD though.
The jets are coming. I paid for them and they have to be sent. $9 for the main and $10 for the idle. Plus postage of course. Usually i want the weekend to last as long as it can, but for once I'm eager to get it over with plus the three or so week days it will take.

towd, you are talking about using jet drills to enlarge the accelerator jet right? we'll see how it goes once the new jets are in. Pretty sure mine is too big, but hey, it's hard to say. It had 55EW stamped on it.

In semi related news I may have finally found another good 1800 head! Another important step for getting the motor back to where it should be.

back to the needle and seat. Given I didn't need to reset anything, I'm not sure if the refresh really did anything. Can't hurt at least I guess. Another interesting thing to note is the hex part on the new one was 10mm, not 3/8" like the old one.

Sat Jul 24, 2010 3:40 am

Different brands of needle valves often look different, nothing unusual there. Some designs probably are better than others though. It would be hard to know what will work better without installing it and driving in all conditions.

Are you talking $80 for a Holley float or a Weber float? Have no idea if they will interchange or not.

Sat Jul 24, 2010 3:45 am

Wildthings wrote: Different brands of needle valves often look different, nothing unusual there. Some designs probably are better than others though. It would be hard to know what will work better without installing it and driving in all conditions.

Are you talking $80 for a Holley float or a Weber float? Have no idea if they will interchange or not.

I don't know :)
$80 for a 2.0L Ford Cortina float, as the parts places can only really search by make and model, and I'm pretty sure that is what the carb came from. It is the most likely suspect.

Sat Jul 24, 2010 10:02 am

I was wondering what the difference was between USD and AUD. These prices your paying are way to hi.. Like a main jet should be higher than a idle, unless that's also the jet holder. or maybe that Holley has one piece idle jets

Around this area, a used Weber of this type, the average price may be as hi as 150 for one that still looks new. 25 to 75 for a old looking one. everyone I've pictured where 25 and those are the shitty looking ones I have left..

the accelerator nozzle/jet if you drill/enlarger that, it get a higher fuel flow, that will take out the flat spot.. also you need a straight, strong full stream of fuel coming out, if it sprays that nozzle could be parcel y plugged of have a burr and a drill will clean that up.. This goes for any carb.. before I had drills, to clean a nozzle. I would get auto elect wire, find one that had a strand of wire that fit the hole, it's a PITA, but it works

Sat Jul 24, 2010 5:29 pm

towd wrote: I was wondering what the difference was between USD and AUD. These prices your paying are way to hi.. Like a main jet should be higher than a idle, unless that's also the jet holder. or maybe that Holley has one piece idle jets

Part prices are a scam. I always say I'm not an envious person, but when it comes to people in the U.S. having the ability to buy car parts and eat has always made me a little jealous.

The price is higher because the availability is lower. I think the person selling the jets buys carburettors and strips them for parts, and rebuilds the good cores, sells them with an adapter plate and a linkage for over$400.
Can't find anyone else that sells the jets. Besides the Cortina, I don't know of many other cars here that ever ran a weber prog style carb.

You should sell adapter kits on Australian eBay. Instant profit!

if I go to a wrecker I'd see mikunis, strombergs, and a few other things but not much else. The wrecker I used to get parts from moved (seriously they moved a wrecking yard), and I haven't quite figured out where. Pity, the guy that ran it most of the time didn't give a damn so i got stuff cheap. No VW though. No-one has VW.

The needle and seat came from the only parts place within an hour's drive. It is a chain so their prices are consistent at least.
Quote:
Around this area, a used Weber of this type, the average price may be as hi as 150 for one that still looks new. 25 to 75 for a old looking one. everyone I've pictured where 25 and those are the shitty looking ones I have left..

the accelerator nozzle/jet if you drill/enlarger that, it get a higher fuel flow, that will take out the flat spot.. also you need a straight, strong full stream of fuel coming out, if it sprays that nozzle could be parcel y plugged of have a burr and a drill will clean that up.. This goes for any carb.. before I had drills, to clean a nozzle. I would get auto elect wire, find one that had a strand of wire that fit the hole, it's a PITA, but it works

I'd only try that if I am desperate. I lack a steady hand.

Sat Jul 24, 2010 8:39 pm

Put the runner back on and started it. vac was more unstable, perhaps slightly improved. Given the rough running and the vac corresponding I think it may be a good thing.

A bit of smoke for the first minute or so which dissipated. Not pumping out smoke clouds anymore. Big victory there.

After it warmed up a bit there was popping. Lots of popping. I won't think much of that until the jets have arrived and been installed and I have done something about the spark plugs.

The idle is still hunting though. Once again, not even going to consider it until the jetting is closer.

In all, it was sounding better. A bit smoother. Can't wait until the jets arrive!