TheSamba.com :: View topic - 32/36 not idling right after removing top.

Tue Aug 03, 2010 8:14 pm

Wildthings wrote: Can't you find a set of FI runners some where and use those? Much sturdier IMO. You can always spread them a bit to fit your center manifold section if need be.

I have been meaning to ask, when do you sleep?

If I could find FI runners I would have done it ages ago. FI parts are hard to come by at best here.

When do I sleep? Don't forget I'm in Australia. It's GMT+10 where I am. In my time probably between 1am to 6:30am. There are periods in between when I'm up but I don't touch the PC then.

Thu Aug 05, 2010 5:53 am

I got a top up of the basics in town. Some permatex gasket stuff, one spraycan each of the cheapest starter fluid, degreaser and carb cleaner I could find, a couple of sheets of sandpaper and a couple of other minor things . WAY too much $ later I have some of the basics. I could have bought a bench drill there for what I spent on bits and pieces like that!

Tomorrow if I get time, I'll go through the motions again and try using goop.

Incidentally i was looking at the Scat website and determined they probably made my prog setup. My runners are goldy coloured like nickel plating, and they have the holes for 3 and 4 stud manifolds. Also the carb mount has a similar basic internal look to it. The notable difference being that mine has the booster connection cast into it and the one in the picture seems to have a threaded hole.
I never took the air cleaner having a big SCAT logo on it as a hint.
It's probably not important but now I have a better idea of what I'm working with.

Thu Aug 05, 2010 9:46 am

RatCamper wrote: Wildthings wrote: Can't you find a set of FI runners some where and use those? Much sturdier IMO. You can always spread them a bit to fit your center manifold section if need be.

I have been meaning to ask, when do you sleep?

If I could find FI runners I would have done it ages ago. FI parts are hard to come by at best here.

When do I sleep? Don't forget I'm in Australia. It's GMT+10 where I am. In my time probably between 1am to 6:30am. There are periods in between when I'm up but I don't touch the PC then.

Couldn't cost that much to have a set of FI runners shipped. I have sent things that were far heavier halfway around the world by the US Postal Service for pretty cheap. I probably have a dusty set around here somewhere I would part with.

Just wondered about your sleeping schedule as you seemed to post around the clock. :wink:

Thu Aug 05, 2010 3:44 pm

My day is pretty much a fragmented mess. I post when I'm busy waiting so to speak. Like right now my baby boy woke up for the morning and it's too cold to go out yet, so all I can really do is sit in the loungeroom with him and spam thesamba ;)

I was kicking myself about the runners. I should have asked the person that I just bought the heads off. he has probably shut up shop by now. Another ACVW mechanic gone :(

It may seem a little strange that I'm trying so hard to seal all the leaks and everything when I have to pull the heads off again anyway. The way I see it is that it means that there is one less major gremlin to chase after the job is done.

The cheapest carb cleaner here seems to be about $12/can. It will be used sparingly.

If you do happen to have a spare set of FI runners, and postage isn't mortgage inducingly bad (and I don't get in trouble from my SO because I have been spending faaar too much on the bay and doing patch jobs on the DD) I would be very interested. I don't care if the runners are SCAT or hand crafted by a team of magical elves. Crap is crap.

Another slight departure here. I noticed a slight difference between some heads that i don't understand. Why is it that some heads have a chunk out of the inlet port mating surfaces which seems to sort of line up with a couple of the case stud holes, whereas others don't? I really wish they didn't do that as it does make a part of the mating surface kind of thin.

Thu Aug 05, 2010 10:17 pm

Cold out ! ,,,,hell Australia don't get cold, everyone knows it's one big desert, nothing but dirt roads and little bunny rabbit things hopping around..

I took the top off another carb, This one has two holes from the bowl. The one going to the sec side ,, at the base/top joint has brass sleeve/tube and is pressed into the top. I'm sure it's there to act as a seal. I can't see that in your pic..

your carb is very clean, don't get worried about having the thing spotless, the tops wrapping ? hmmm well thats a new one.... venturis getting loose welllll the cast in a s a part of the main casting. now the auxiliary vents are a separate part. more often, than not those are so tight in place, you don't dare try to remove them,
remember the one you have is the add ball ecno carb, the double rings on one vent.. look up some of the aussie 510 datum sites or dime quarterly These carbs are common use on the LB engines,,, That would be a local to you place to look for parts,,

shipping ... 13 5/8" x 11 7/8" x 3 3/8" or 11" x 8 1/2" x 5 1/2".
Maximum weight 20 pounds. 44 bucks USD I doubt even one of these carbs would fit in that size box.. I don't call that cheap...

I have a friend in Ontario Canada, any thing I send her is no less that 25 USD,,, Shit I used to drive a truck into Canada,, The F88K'n broker would get 100's , if not 1000"s just get get across, here's the best part, The sorry ass American gate guards get 10 bucks to get back in the US. They don't give a shit what you bring back ( Loaded or empty) as long as they get that ten .. OH in cash ..

Sat Aug 07, 2010 6:24 pm

Thanks again for the info towd.

I've nearly finished giving the 1/2 runner a really aggressive flattening. It looked like the whole thing twisted slightly axially. Also the thin bits of the flange around the sides of the ports I am unhappy with, that's why I'm trying to remove as much as possible. The metal they used is HARD.

The reason I'm doing a premature post is to ask something.

I picked up some big flat washers at the hardware store with a roughly correct ID to fit the manifold studs. What I was thinking was grinding / cutting chunks out of each washer so they will actually fit next to the runners. Sort of like a simpler version of the torque distribution plate idea. But in this case use big washers to distribute the force more evenly around the stud holes on the manifold flange.
Notching the washers will probably take me a while, so I don't want to waste a lot of time on something useless.
The design that SCAT used for their 3 and 4 stud combo runners involves 3 round holes in the center and two slots or elongated holes on the ends. Plenty of chances for distortion and uneven pressure to occur especially at the ends.
At the ends the washers don't have much contact surface.

I might check out the situation a bit better on one of those heads I received recently as it's so damn hard to get a good idea what's going on with these runners in the engine bay.

This may all be a semi-pointless exercise, but as stated previously I want to get the fuel system working properly before I pull the topend apart again.

Sun Aug 08, 2010 2:19 am

It'll take a miracle to get that POS runner flat. I just plopped it straight down on the glass and it has a little rock in it. Not rocking in the middle between the two ports as you may think, but as in top to bottom. And I still haven't flattened off the bottom half of the port area as much as I would like.

i swear the stamp they used to punch out the flanges was as sharp as a well loved crayon. So much curvature on the edges of the plate.

Sun Aug 08, 2010 9:40 am

sorry you are having trouble, hard to visualize how they came to be this way. We always used an industrial belt sander to surface that type item. Lacking that then pieces of wet and dry on a thick piece of glass while making figure 8's with the part being flattened. At this point I would probably just buy a set of used runners from Samba Classifieds. You started this thread back on June 27 so by now you could have built a whole new motor, installed it and be enjoying it. It must be frustrating unless you are manic-depressive in which case go back on the meds. Used runners are really inexpensive in Classfieds as no one wants them.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=969587

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=960109

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=992942

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=998023

Sun Aug 08, 2010 10:05 am

RatCamper wrote: My work area is clean. That is not my work area.

I haven't actually seen those dunk tanks anywhere. What do you dunk the carb parts in anyway? The only carb cleaner I have seen is fairly expensive stuff and in an aerosol. It is quite possible i can obtain it elsewhere if I can find out what is in it. For some reason I can only source what I need through industrial suppliers.

My apologies. I just noticed you are in Australia and may not have access to the same items we do.

The dunk tanks have a basket included. I'm not sure what the chemical is. You can also use a product made by Yamaha called Yama-Lube. Might be easier to find.

Sun Aug 08, 2010 5:33 pm

Sorry about the lazyquote.

I found myself wondering if I sanded them that way but that would be awfully hard to to to a flat piece of hardened steel without a concerted effort.
I was chatting to a friend online last night who said when he had a similar issue he took to it with a file. That really isn't such a bad idea the way it stands. It worked for him and he built a supercharged super among other things. It's a bugaru now but that's beside the point.

You made me think. There is a place that makes trailers, trays etc nearby. I wonder if they would have a big belt sander.

been doing the glass and sandpaper. I keep upping the ante on the grit. I'm up to 80 grit now. Those flanges destroy a sheet in a few minutes, which makes me wonder how something so hard can be so warped. To tighten them down that much the manifold studs would have surely pulled. When I submitted and decided to use a torque wrench it was apparent I was using far under 14ft/lb when doing it by feel. So it wasn't meeeee!
I think someone at SCAT needs a good headbutt for this one.

I'll check out the classifieds, although I may be getting my hands on something anyway. What worries me about buying more runners is same shit, different stink to put it crudely.

Repairing my stock duals was made pointless by parts being horrifyingly expensive / made of unobtainium, and the LH carb bowl leak was the final nail in the coffin for them. I still don't get how it is possible but it was undeniable. The bowl would empty overnight and fuel would trickle down the inside of the manifold.

A slight correction. if I lived in the U.S. or possibly mainland Europe I could have built a motor by now and been enjoying it.
it's not just VWs either. Our DD is a variant of the family of the most common cars on the road here. Even parts for it are hard to obtain. Yes I tried the dealership. I actually live over the road from one. Like i need a serp belt. the car/motor combo wasn't even listed in the Bosch belt guide!

Back on topic. I haven't had as much time as I'd like to work on this. That irritating "life" thing that stops me from working on it keeps getting in the way.

I have a long way to go before it is in a condition where I would feel happy with it being inspected and subsequently failed for multiple ADR noncompliance issues *cough*. Depending on the inspector it'll probably get failed for front indicators, taillights and steering wheel. I actually had one cheeky bugger try to get me to get an engineers cert for the camper conversion (done in 1975). I went elsewhere that time.

I have to go over to a larger town about 1-1/2 hours away on wednesday so I may have a chance to scrounge for some more generic bits and pieces. I also have to dig out my old cylinder heads. Someone needs one as a template to make a very useful tool.

SGKent wrote: sorry you are having trouble, hard to visualize how they came to be this way. We always used an industrial belt sander to surface that type item. Lacking that then pieces of wet and dry on a thick piece of glass while making figure 8's with the part being flattened. At this point I would probably just buy a set of used runners from Samba Classifieds. You started this thread back on June 27 so by now you could have built a whole new motor, installed it and be enjoying it. It must be frustrating unless you are manic-depressive in which case go back on the meds. Used runners are really inexpensive in Classfieds as no one wants them.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=969587

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=960109

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=992942

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=998023

Mon Aug 09, 2010 1:48 am

The runner was looking pretty nice. Took a lot of metal off to deal with the curved metal around the port holes.

They were given a nice film of permatex form-a-gasket as was the ports on the head.

Put the runner and some flat washers on and start putting the nuts on. when i started to tighten the nuts down, not as in torque them, but just when they made contact with the head I noticed it didn't seem to be tightening down quite evenly, ie maybe distorting. I don't know, could have just been a little lateral force from the runner boots.
Anyhow left it for a while and started it up. Nice high idle :( Attacked it with starting fluid, it revved up yet again.

It was left like that as I was in no mood to continue further. Tomorrow I guess I'll pull the runner off again and start the irksome task of cleaning up the goop. On the bright side it will show me where it is leaking.

Tue Aug 10, 2010 2:22 am

Pulled it, hacked at it some more because it's leaking from the bottoms.

Saw a funny chunk of aluminium sticking out of the little ditch thing below the ports and tore it off with a pair of needle nose pliers. no idea why it was there, didn't affect anything.

Got p'd off with it all and installed port>permatex permatex<gasket>permatex permatex>runner.

I don't think it is leaking. I used starting fluid on the manifolds until I was tripping for the next couple of hours. Couldn't get any flareups, but still didn't want to rev below 1200.
In a couple of days I'll attack it again. I won't be around tomorrow so it'll have to wait.

Fri Aug 13, 2010 6:12 pm

Me again.

because my permatex overload + gasket seems to be holding on the 1/2 side for now, I thought it pertinent to re-visit the 3/4 side.
I didn't expect what i saw.

The runner flange was drenched in fuel. the gasket was drenched in fuel. the manifold mating face was drenched in fuel. The Permatex... I could have sworn I put some on there. There were some tiny traces on the edges that were a slightly viscous liquid. This stuff is meant to be fuel safe. Why is it being dissolved???
I heard whispers that all standard unleaded in Victoria is silently changing to e10. I also managed to find out that's where our fuel supply comes from. I wonder.

Anyway, the revisit proved fruitful. I had overlooked a low point mistaking the factory "machining" for my resurfacing. There was also a high point and a low point on the central portion between ports. This distortion didn't seem to follow with overtorquing. It was just plain and simple warpage.
On the bottom thin bit of one of the ports, i would say there is at least 0.8mm of curvature on the mating face of the flange. How in the hell is that possible unless either their press was super blunt or I somehow overlooked the runner being twisted like a pretzel?

Progress has been slow. A sick baby makes for a shift in activities.

I'm pleased I found such a poor seal, but am perplexed why it didn't rev to the moon when I hit it with starting fluid.

Can't remember if I said, but i had no luck at the wreckers. they don't stock anything as old as ...well carburettors anymore. [expletive]

edit reason: I R tyep gud.

Fri Aug 13, 2010 10:52 pm

I put the 3/4 runner back on. No amount of aerostart anywhere can get the revs to surge, but it still dies if I try to take it below 1200 rpm.

Instant engine death if I slap my hand over the adapter on the carb throat.

No matter what I do it doesn't affect max vacuum much. It always seems to be around 15"Hg. Because the vac gauge is essentially useless now I decided to remove it as it is the only other variable in the intake system.
It hasn't been started back up yet. I am really running out of ideas here.

edit: started it. Still pretty much teh same. Found a leak somewhere around the bottom of the carb. Pulled the carb off and dropped a nut. Still haven't found it :(
Anyway the gasket was nice and wet. I dug out the rubber spacer I pulled out earlier. It wasn't rubber apparently, just saturated and dark.

I'll have another hunt for the nut tomorrow. Because it isn't metric I don't have any spares.

Sat Aug 14, 2010 8:01 pm

Found the nut, sealed the carb base, ran it, checked for leaks with starter fluid. Can't find any.

Still can't get idle below maybe 1200rpm. Interesting thing is after it runs at those revs for a while it just dies suddenly unless I give it a blip. Only needs to be a really minor one.

Sun Aug 15, 2010 8:57 pm

Good news!

I went to shuffle the vehicles because it was rather unpleasant sinking into the mud.

before I did this I decided to replace the washers on the 1/2 side with the big ones I got. A couple of days ago I carved a small chunk maybe 1mm deep out of each one with a die grinder so they could fit around the manifold runners.
They were replaced one at a time because it was easier. When I got to the bottom nut on #2 and went to torque it up, it was meeting resistance but not torquing up. I kept turning and eventually hit the end. No it wasn't stripping, it was squishing. That was very odd considering it's nearby friend was torqued as were the others. So I went through and retorqued the others, although they didn't need much of a tweak.

So I started it up. revs were marginally lower on fast idle. It didn't sound so anaemic either. I tried adjusting the idle down after a little but I think it was a little too early. it got down to about 850-1000 in a slightly unsteady idle.
This is good. Not perfect and I don't know what's left, but it is something.

Thu Aug 19, 2010 2:38 pm

I don't know if anyone is reading this but I may have had a breakthrough yesterday.

Summarised, it's like this. Found wetness from fuel under 1 and 3 boot. felt around a bit and there was some casting flash. went to remove carb base instead of runners like I usually do and found the runners are interfering with the carb base mount thing too!

Ground back and sanded the casting misalignment and awful factory grind on the carb base mount. Then I ground back and sanded the interfering parts on the runners. Not sure if I took off enough but the carb did fit back in between.
i also noticed some runner misalignment and also the carb sits slightly askew, not pointing dead ahead. Weird.
As i was assembling I noticed the throttle lever on the carb was now wobbling side to side quite a lot. WTH? So I bent back the locking tabs and tightened the throttle shaft nut by hand as I wasn't sure what tension it needs and finger tight shouldn't wreck anything.

This is where I am now. At least I know how a flat flange was leaking.

Thu Aug 19, 2010 3:15 pm

Most of these set ups do sit a little askew. Normal but a little weird.

Thu Aug 19, 2010 4:18 pm

Wildthings wrote: Most of these set ups do sit a little askew. Normal but a little weird.

I'll say. These things are meant to have been done in a jig to make sure they align. Unless I misunderstood and the person assembling it was doing a jig at the time. Too long though. Seriously? As far as I know all type 4 motors are the same width. I just took the interfering edges back a bit with a die grinder in situ. Don't worry, I had paper towels jammed into the runners, and also checked after for any residual contamination.
I probably could have ground back a bit more but my "little" compressor doesn't have enough puff to keep a die grinder happy, and I couldn't have been bothered using my big one.

For the sake of wasting bandwidth / giving people something more than a wall of text to look at here's my little compressor:

Mon Aug 23, 2010 9:13 pm

Some progress!

After doing all the grinding etc it sat for a while. I finally stole a few minutes today. Lucky I did a pre-check. One of the boots went on crooked. Fixed that and fired it up. After much fiddling with idle I found a setting where idle was low enough. I couldn't set it precisely because my two tachs are reading maybe 200rpm off from ea h other, and my tach/dwell meter is dead :(

I got it to roughly where it should be anyway. It was a bit uneven but not what I'd call wandering.
Giving the throttle a squirt it responds instantly, but takes maybe one to two seconds to drop the last 300rpm to idle.

Also of note is something that may be nothing. Because it was sitting for a while it took a couple of attempts before it caught and stayed running. Probably the fuel in the carb evaporated. Anyway, first time there was a sound a lot like a cat sneezing loudly twice. Poorly seated or sticking valve maybe? I dunno. Could have even been something sitting up back moving, but it did sound kind of engine-y.