TheSamba.com :: View topic

Sun Jun 12, 2011 7:53 am

I've read that Permatex Aviation can be used to seal the cylinder to the case. My cylinders did not come with paper gaskets, and I've also read it is fine to leave them out. Where exactly do I need to put the sealer? On the sides of the cylinder or the bottom edge where it seats in the case?

This is a stock SP 1600.

Sun Jun 12, 2011 8:24 am

I,ve always used Permatex "Ultra Copper "sealant , under my cylinder bases,with good luck and no leaks.Just make sure the cyl. base and case spigot areas are super clean. A bead of this stuff,the width of the cyl. base is suffient,and when they are torqued down,u have a nice bead around the cyl. base..

Sun Jun 12, 2011 8:47 am

Thanks. I figured you put it on the edge but wasn't sure.

Sun Jun 12, 2011 8:56 am

There is no pressure there except for crankcase operating pressure. Any leak with be seepage.

Some claim VW says to use silicone in this location, I've never seen a VW service bulletin that states such information. The Bentley manual states only to use the paper gasket.
Tom Wilson in his book says to use Permatex 3H http://www.permatex.com/products/automotive/automo...lant_a.htm along with the paper gasket. He also says that the Permatex 3H or silicone alone will seal the joint. 6

I tend to go with the theory that silicone ANYWHERE on an air cooled VW engine without an aftermarket full flow oil filter is a major major no no.

I use Hylomar and am pleased with the results. No leaks, it has a degree of flexibility to it and is also easy clean up. No fears of hardened globs getting sucked up by the oil pump and gumming up the oil passages either.

http://www.amazon.com/Permatex-85249-Hylomar-Universal-Dressing/dp/B0018PSATY

Dave

Sun Jun 12, 2011 9:26 am

Ultra Grey for me.... :wink:

Sun Jun 12, 2011 9:27 am

Whatever you use, use it sparingly. You don't need big gobs of the stuff oozing out from under the barrels.

Sun Jun 12, 2011 9:46 am

With such a small surface area I'm thinking a BB size drop would cover 1 cylinder. Am I close?

Sun Jun 12, 2011 9:59 am

All you need is to run a bead about 1/16" wide all the way around the base of the cylinder where it seats against the case. Just snip off the very end of the plastic dispenser cone thingy on the tube of sealant.

Sun Jun 12, 2011 10:33 am

vgajames wrote: Ultra Grey for me.... :wink:

1+ here works perfect.
I like to let the engine sit for atleast a day after installing the jug to let the silicone dry. I had one that I added oil and cranked within a couple hours of installing the jugs, and it seeped some.
Like said above, be extra carefull with sillycone if you don't have full flow flitration.

Sun Jun 12, 2011 10:59 am

tim_1911 wrote: With such a small surface area I'm thinking a BB size drop would cover 1 cylinder. Am I close?

Yes.... Sealing surface only needs to be "wet" with sealer any thing more is a problem...

And there is nothing wrong with silicone RTV if uses sparingly (and correctly)...

Dale

Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:18 am

Appreciate all the advise. I do not have a filter so I'll be very careful with the amount.

Sun Jun 12, 2011 2:46 pm

VW issued the service bulletin in the early seventies to STOP using the paper gaskets and start using silicone.

RC

Sun Jun 12, 2011 3:49 pm

My method is to place the gasket on a piece of clean cardboard with Permatex 3H and brush around the gasket, both sides, if no gasket used, i brush around the base of the cylinder.

Sun Jun 12, 2011 4:52 pm

RockCrusher wrote: VW issued the service bulletin in the early seventies to STOP using the paper gaskets and start using silicone.

RC

Yep, heard this for years. You'd think with the miracle of digitizing information that a copy of said service bulletin would have surfaced by now. Until it does, to me it's all urban legend and hearsay.
People often hear something and without any documentation parrot it as rock hard fact.

Question, why doesn't my Type I service manual printed in 1976 mention this?

Dave

Sun Jun 12, 2011 5:06 pm

djkeev wrote: RockCrusher wrote: VW issued the service bulletin in the early seventies to STOP using the paper gaskets and start using silicone.

RC

Yep, heard this for years. You'd think with the miracle of digitizing information that a copy of said service bulletin would have surfaced by now. Until it does, to me it's all urban legend and hearsay.
People often hear something and without any documentation parrot it as rock hard fact.

Question, why doesn't my Type I service manual printed in 1976 mention this?

Dave That info comes directly from Gene Berg.....good enough for me.

Sun Jun 12, 2011 5:29 pm

RockCrusher wrote: djkeev wrote: RockCrusher wrote: VW issued the service bulletin in the early seventies to STOP using the paper gaskets and start using silicone.

RC

Yep, heard this for years. You'd think with the miracle of digitizing information that a copy of said service bulletin would have surfaced by now. Until it does, to me it's all urban legend and hearsay.
People often hear something and without any documentation parrot it as rock hard fact.

Question, why doesn't my Type I service manual printed in 1976 mention this?

Dave That info comes directly from Gene Berg.....good enough for me.

Still waiting for the bulletin to appear, sorry.
Gene Berg's reputation as a great VW wizard is legendary. Even modern Legends can be, and at times are, sincerely wrong.

I guess my thinking is that silicone is known to be a hazard to the oil passages in ACVW without a modern oil filter installed. I don't need outside documentation for this, I've got proof from personal experience with a #1 main seized on an engine that was floating in excess silicone. Pieces were found in the oil passages when I trashed the case!

Why the heck take the risk of introducing silicone into a case where the possibility exists of it finding it's way through the oil pump and into the lubrication system, no matter how small the chance is? There are other products that do as well if not better than silicone. Why assume that risk?

In my mind it is pure folly!

Silicone is quite possibly the most misused, overused and trouble causing modern product. Be it in sealing auto parts to sealing house roof leaks and windows. It has very severe limitations and will adhere to only certain products and can only withstand certain temperatures and environmental conditions (depending upon it's type) but almost everyone regards it as some sort of miracle all purpose sealant! Add to this the "if a little is good then naturally more is better" mentality and you've got instant disaster.

Dave

Sun Jun 12, 2011 6:17 pm

walking around the pits at sac bugorama I've seen quite A bit of red silicone between cylinders and the cases,but like A friend said they aren't driving them every day.Just quarter mile here and there.

Sun Jun 12, 2011 6:29 pm

djkeev wrote: Silicone is quite possibly the most misused, overused and trouble causing modern product. Be it in sealing auto parts to sealing house roof leaks and windows. It has very severe limitations and will adhere to only certain products and can only withstand certain temperatures and environmental conditions (depending upon it's type) but almost everyone regards it as some sort of miracle all purpose sealant! Add to this the "if a little is good then naturally more is better" mentality and you've got instant disaster.

Dave, your gripe is with misuse, not use... if the service bulletin went to dealer mechanics, it's a fairly safe assumption that the service techs would use it properly... I've never had a problem using RTV, but I use it properly and appropriately...

Sun Jun 12, 2011 7:55 pm

RTV works great!! I like the speed chanel& espn2 with the dragracin...as for cylinders never used silocone,Ill give it a try.Ive used halomar,no leaks,518, no leaks, mercrusier perfect seal. no leaks(I wish I had smore more of that stuff.)

Sun Jun 12, 2011 8:48 pm

Three-Bond #1211. I've used it on barrels, case halves, head studs, etc. Use just enough to make a very thin film, let it set up a minute, and put it together. I've never had a leak using it, on any VW or motorcycle engine I've used it on.

Japanese motorcycle makers have used Three Bond for decades, with no gaskets and with no leaks. If it works in those applications, it'll work on an ACVW.

Nick