TheSamba.com :: View topic - Patricks 21-Window Resto

Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:59 pm

This whole sad story seems all to common. Sees most of the VW restoration shops end up in some sort of drama everyone from Lenny C to now Joe. Seems when dealing with the VW world you have to tax Peter to pay Paul, take on more work than you can handle but dare not turn down a job less they take their business everywhere, then there is the desire to push a job through quick because time in the shop is money. VW owners are partly to blame because many are on a tight budget and seek to get the top notch work done at Earl Scheib prices. A lot of VW restorers try to strike a balance in order to make a living and often fail, get crappy reps and then fade away. Personally, I think you'd have to be nuts to take on VW resto work. The number of guys willing to pay for a top notch resto are few and far in between. Everyone wants something for nothing in the world of body and paint, few understand what a time sink a rusty bus is and therefore gripe and bitch over the hours it takes to get job done right, so many shops try to cut corners to keep customers happy. You'd have to be nuts to go into business restoring VWs.

Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:08 am

Braukuche wrote: This whole sad story seems all to common. Sees most of the VW restoration shops end up in some sort of drama everyone from Lenny C to now Joe. Seems when dealing with the VW world you have to tax Peter to pay Paul, take on more work than you can handle but dare not turn down a job less they take their business everywhere, then there is the desire to push a job through quick because time in the shop is money. VW owners are partly to blame because many are on a tight budget and seek to get the top notch work done at Earl Scheib prices. A lot of VW restorers try to strike a balance in order to make a living and often fail, get crappy reps and then fade away. Personally, I think you'd have to be nuts to take on VW resto work. The number of guys willing to pay for a top notch resto are few and far in between. Everyone wants something for nothing in the world of body and paint, few understand what a time sink a rusty bus is and therefore gripe and bitch over the hours it takes to get job done right, so many shops try to cut corners to keep customers happy. You'd have to be nuts to go into business restoring VWs.

The unfortunate part for this hobby and industry is when these shops charge $15 - $20K and the vehicle comes back looking like the photos above, just saying....

Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:53 am

buseric wrote:
The unfortunate part for this hobby and industry is when these shops charge $15 - $20K and the vehicle comes back looking like the photos above, just saying....

Out of curiosity, since you've seen the initial condition of this bus, how far do you think 15-20k should get it?

Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:21 am

VWsArent4Hippies wrote: buseric wrote:
The unfortunate part for this hobby and industry is when these shops charge $15 - $20K and the vehicle comes back looking like the photos above, just saying....

Out of curiosity, since you've seen the initial condition of this bus, how far do you think 15-20k should get it?

Well I haven't really seen the initial condition other than the pics here so its hard to truly judge the condition, but obviously the bus was a major project. I don't know Patrick or Gary or have any idea what the job cost however I would guess that $15K - $20K might get the metal work completed properly and the body truly straight and in primer at an average shop price. Not sure given the extensive metal work required if you could expect to get it painted inside and out for that kind of money.

Of course there are many factors that play in to the cost such as customer standards, initial vehicle condition, complexity of repairs, shop rate, market value for completed buses (as that goes up so does the cost of bodywork it seems)etc. etc.

Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:37 am

buseric wrote: I would guess that $15K - $20K might get the metal work completed properly and the body truly straight and in primer at an average shop price.

No way. At an average shop rate, that's an easy 15-20k in metal work alone. Some people simply cannot fathom the amount of hours it takes to tackle a project of this scale.

I have no clue what has been spent on this bus, at either shop, so this is a general statement, not necessarily directed at this project. It just kills me when I see people posting about what it "should" take to do a bus and in reality they have no clue. Any shop that quotes a cost or timeline on a project like this is only shooting themselves in the foot.

Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:48 am

VWsArent4Hippies wrote: buseric wrote: I would guess that $15K - $20K might get the metal work completed properly and the body truly straight and in primer at an average shop price.

No way. At an average shop rate, that's an easy 15-20k in metal work alone. Some people simply cannot fathom the amount of hours it takes to tackle a project of this scale.

I have no clue what has been spent on this bus, at either shop, so this is a general statement, not necessarily directed at this project. It just kills me when I see people posting about what it "should" take to do a bus and in reality they have no clue. Any shop that quotes a cost or timeline on a project like this is only shooting themselves in the foot.

Very true and as customer people need to understand that. I try to do most of my own bodywork but I am no expert so now I get it as good as I can with my level of skill and send it off to a professional I like to work with. We agreed on an hourly rate. Every Saturday I go over to his shop to see what he has done and he points out all my screw ups and basically asks me how much time I want him to put into fixing or improving it. it is totally up to me. He keeps track of his hours. If I don't want to pay more, that is have him half ass it, that is my call though he knows I won't go that route. My point is as a customer you need to be in that shop, part of the process, communicating with the bodyman. You are the boss and should be directing the work. It takes the onus off the bodyman and puts it on you, unless you are a money bags and can write a blank check I see no other way of doing it.

Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:20 am

$15K is 125 Hours up here ($120/hr if you can find someone willing to do it).

For that money you might have got all the metal work done (if you supplied the parts/metal, which probably cost about $5K in this case). But how many shops up here work on 21 Windows on a regular basis? (or in the world?) They would NOT have experience with the roof area that's for sure.

For comparison; I spent over 5K in metal on my bus (but I got a good deal on some of it). I have over 250+ hours into it as labour (but I'm an amateur, pros work faster).

There's no shop up here (that's decent) that would get that bus into primer for $20K. Forget about paint. I asked shops for estimates on my 23 Window, just to prime and paint it. Not one had a quote lower than $15K.

I agree with Dan, there's no sane person that should restore a VW. I do it because I really really like it. It's very addictive and fun, but there is *ZERO* money in it (if you count labour it's actually a massive money losing proposition as I get paid $40/hr at my real job, and $80/hr overtime but I never pick up any as I'm working on the bus).

Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:08 pm

trikerboy wrote: Well, here's a response from Woody, is Patrick physically incapable of posting for himself? We hear from you, we hear from Greg we hear from Robb with two B's, lets hear from Patrick. do yourself a favor, go back and look at my posts, have I defended any of the work done on the bus? Have I criticized any of the work you have done on the bus?

Here's a few direct questions, did Patrick authorize/know about the type of repairs that were done to the to the inner structure of the roof?
Its been said that Patrick had great results from you on at least two previous builds, why in the world would he be having work done elsewhere?

Who suggested/Recommended that Patrick use Vintage Metal Werks?

I know of another bus owner that posts in this thread bashing the work that was done to the inner roof/window area on bus ( I believe I have pictures of the areas on my laptop somewhere that have now been hidden by a headliner) why why was it OK for his bus but, totally unacceptable for Patrick's bus?

Again, show where I have bashed or supported anyone's work, show me and I will never post here again.

How about having Patrick log in or create an account for him and have him say "I knew nothing about the repairs that where make to my bus and I did not intend for those repairs to be made on my bus in fashion that the were made". Seems to me that would be a simple thing for him to do.
I really have never considered myself a sidekick but what the heck I've been called worse by better people. :D

Hi Woody

Patrick is emotionaly distraught at this point and has no interest in this soap opera. After all his wife is also darn near broke and now their kids won't be going to college.
Sorry to hear that, but as they say the world needs ditch diggers too.

And no you have not defended Joe's work on Patricks bus, yet, and if you choose to do so wouldn't you be giving him the same as green bug Scott got? Can't do that, that would prove me right and you get to keep your roll a side kick. Furthermore if your not a sidekick then why is everything you say related to "we". And you really don't want to criticiize what we are doing, do you? Maybe you want join our camp.

Like I said, haven't defended or criticized, and not interested in being your sidekick, I think you have enough of those.

You defended Joe in the case of green bug Scott and I think many here can support me on that. And weren't you willing to help Joe bury that body with your shovel? Are going to quit posting now? Don't you read or remember your own posts.

I have no intention of not posting, it seems like you want me to. It's not my fault "Green Bug Scott" ran out of money to finish his car the right way. It happens to people all the time who think their "players".

The other bus with the new headliner that you mention at least had new metal welded in and the picture was posted. I think no one would find it acceptable to place a headliner over all the unatended rust shown in my posts and furthermore leaving all that rust alone is not considered "a type of repair" or least it is not one I have heard of. And now you want me create an account for Patrick to comment on the "fashion" of that "type" of repair.You got to be kidding, two nothings don't make something.

No the bus in question did not have all new metal welded in place and the headliner was installed over rust holes, the owner is fully aware of it, hell the owner helped do the work. But know he suddenly feels it isn't good enough for Patricks bus and now posts to bash the work. It could have something to do with his ongoing issues but we wont air that dirty laundry here, unless he wants to.

Your type of repair was totally unknown to everyone except for the person who performed that type of repair.Photobucket was down, remember? Statements were made that the roof was all welded up, photobucket was down, when asked, no photos were produced, So go figure!

My type of repair? Please explain that one.

When Patrick went to get his bus and he saw things as they were all he wanted was to get his bus back to Canada and not have it held randsome. but I guess that would be unthinkable. You claim he never complained, now remember that unthinkable I just mentioned. Patrick took his lumps and moved on and so will I after I post the rest of the pictures so that everyone can form there own opinions.

Let me help you with that one, I asked why didn't he complain when the bus was picket up. Ransom? is that a veiled reference to someone else that didn't pay their bill in full?

Now go have good meal in that favourite resturant of yours and remember to put a longer sock on that short pant leg.

You have a lot to say but it seems like for some reason you don't like to answer questions. [/b]

Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:15 pm

Braukuche wrote: VWsArent4Hippies wrote: buseric wrote: I would guess that $15K - $20K might get the metal work completed properly and the body truly straight and in primer at an average shop price.

No way. At an average shop rate, that's an easy 15-20k in metal work alone. Some people simply cannot fathom the amount of hours it takes to tackle a project of this scale.

I have no clue what has been spent on this bus, at either shop, so this is a general statement, not necessarily directed at this project. It just kills me when I see people posting about what it "should" take to do a bus and in reality they have no clue. Any shop that quotes a cost or timeline on a project like this is only shooting themselves in the foot.

Very true and as customer people need to understand that. I try to do most of my own bodywork but I am no expert so now I get it as good as I can with my level of skill and send it off to a professional I like to work with. We agreed on an hourly rate. Every Saturday I go over to his shop to see what he has done and he points out all my screw ups and basically asks me how much time I want him to put into fixing or improving it. it is totally up to me. He keeps track of his hours. If I don't want to pay more, that is have him half ass it, that is my call though he knows I won't go that route. My point is as a customer you need to be in that shop, part of the process, communicating with the bodyman. You are the boss and should be directing the work. It takes the onus off the bodyman and puts it on you, unless you are a money bags and can write a blank check I see no other way of doing it.

HOLD ON HERE FOR A MINUTE !!!!!!!!

THIS WHOLE ISSUE IS NOT ABOUT HOW MUCH MONEY YOU HAVE TO THROW AT PROJECT TO GET IT RIGHT. WHAT, IF YOU DIDN'T SPEND AT LEAST X AMOUNT OF DOLLARS, YOU GOT A BARGIN SO DON'T COMPLAIN ABOUT WHAT YOU GOT!!!!! Hell yes, we saw that with green bug Scott's experience. Very few if anybody knows what Joe charged Patrick and to that end his hourly rate is really doesn't matter because nobody was watching the meter. Likewise nobody, aside from Patrick knows what he will be paying me. It is all unimportant.
THE THREAD IS WHAT WE HAVE,WHAT WAS SAID, AND WHAT SHOWN OR NOT SHOWN. And by we I mean all of us that read the thread.If you care go back, read and look, be objective and see it for what it is based on only these facts not foolish speculation.It,s not about $$$$, It's about integrity.

Anybody can make a baseless claim that would be impossible to defend without proof. After that all you have is "he said, she said" followed by a big pissing contest,I know, I was married once. It may be fun for awhile on this thread but it dosn't benefit anybody.

Patrick moved on. He's not hopeful of any restitution. I'm going settle down",LEAVE ALL B/S BEHIND" and continue posting progress on the bus with photos of what we started with and where we are going.

ASK YOURSELF THESE QUESTIONS AS YOU READ

Why would anybody claim to have a shell ready to roll into the booth for paint without, welding, fitting, and finishing the removeables?

Why make claims that things fit when they don't?

Why Would Patrick pull his bus out just before paint?

What have I got gain?

Why do photos contridict what was said?

Why weren't the photos produced once photobucket was up, as claimed many times?

Why weren't photos produced when asked?

Why claim roof rust repaired when it wasn't?

This is my sole opinion and quite time consuming and I could be doing other things. No more pissing contests, for me anyway.

Gary.

Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:36 pm

Hi Woody

Patrick is emotionaly distraught at this point and has no interest in this soap opera. After all his wife is also darn near broke and now their kids won't be going to college.
Sorry to hear that, but as they say the world needs ditch diggers too.

And no you have not defended Joe's work on Patricks bus, yet, and if you choose to do so wouldn't you be giving him the same as green bug Scott got? Can't do that, that would prove me right and you get to keep your roll a side kick. Furthermore if your not a sidekick then why is everything you say related to "we". And you really don't want to criticiize what we are doing, do you? Maybe you want join our camp.

Like I said, haven't defended or criticized, and not interested in being your sidekick, I think you have enough of those.

You defended Joe in the case of green bug Scott and I think many here can support me on that. And weren't you willing to help Joe bury that body with your shovel? Are going to quit posting now? Don't you read or remember your own posts.

I have no intention of not posting, it seems like you want me to. It's not my fault "Green Bug Scott" ran out of money to finish his car the right way. It happens to people all the time who think their "players".

The other bus with the new headliner that you mention at least had new metal welded in and the picture was posted. I think no one would find it acceptable to place a headliner over all the unatended rust shown in my posts and furthermore leaving all that rust alone is not considered "a type of repair" or least it is not one I have heard of. And now you want me create an account for Patrick to comment on the "fashion" of that "type" of repair.You got to be kidding, two nothings don't make something.

No the bus in question did not have all new metal welded in place and the headliner was installed over rust holes, the owner is fully aware of it, hell the owner helped do the work. But know he suddenly feels it isn't good enough for Patricks bus and now posts to bash the work. It could have something to do with his ongoing issues but we wont air that dirty laundry here, unless he wants to.

Your type of repair was totally unknown to everyone except for the person who performed that type of repair.Photobucket was down, remember? Statements were made that the roof was all welded up, photobucket was down, when asked, no photos were produced, So go figure!

My type of repair? Please explain that one.

When Patrick went to get his bus and he saw things as they were all he wanted was to get his bus back to Canada and not have it held randsome. but I guess that would be unthinkable. You claim he never complained, now remember that unthinkable I just mentioned. Patrick took his lumps and moved on and so will I after I post the rest of the pictures so that everyone can form there own opinions.

Let me help you with that one, I asked why didn't he complain when the bus was picket up. Ransom? is that a veiled reference to someone else that didn't pay their bill in full?

Now go have good meal in that favourite resturant of yours and remember to put a longer sock on that short pant leg.

You have a lot to say but it seems like for some reason you don't like to answer questions. [/b][/quote]

HI. WOODY

Thank you kindly for your post. I do sincerely hope everyone can enjoy it for what is worth.

Best Wishes. Gary

Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:47 pm

"Early on when Patrick was looking for a bus he informed me that Vintage Metal Werks had located a bus which he and Joe went to see. Joe informed Patrick that the bus was doable and gave him a estimation of what he would charge Patrick to take it to the final assembly stage. From seeing Joe's shop and projects on the go Patrick was confident that (Vintage Metal Werks) could handle the job.

Before he commited to purchase the bus he talked to me and I informed him. "if" this shop is going to what they say they are going to do and have a reputation restoring busses then he's your man,the price was resonable,but start with " complete " welding stage first and see where that goes.After talking to Joe about this approach and "verbally" agreeing with Joe to those terms and a price to do that he did purchaces the bus.

I too, like so many others, was very impressed with the photos of progress on the bus and I did follow the thread closely.The fact of the rotissiere was not for me to judge after all he was supposedly a pro. About this time last year Joe and his bodyman, Robb, had a falling out so Robb left and the project went dormant for quite a while.

You should get with Robb with two B's and you guys get your stories straight, on page 13 of this thread in his poignant response to me he says
"I walked. If there was a falling out, I would loved not to have missed that." "

All of you guys should get together and write down your stories so you can refer to them when your responding to peoples posts. :roll:

Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:56 pm

trikerboy wrote: Hi Woody

Patrick is emotionaly distraught at this point and has no interest in this soap opera. After all his wife is also darn near broke and now their kids won't be going to college.
Sorry to hear that, but as they say the world needs ditch diggers too.

And no you have not defended Joe's work on Patricks bus, yet, and if you choose to do so wouldn't you be giving him the same as green bug Scott got? Can't do that, that would prove me right and you get to keep your roll a side kick. Furthermore if your not a sidekick then why is everything you say related to "we". And you really don't want to criticiize what we are doing, do you? Maybe you want join our camp.

Like I said, haven't defended or criticized, and not interested in being your sidekick, I think you have enough of those.

You defended Joe in the case of green bug Scott and I think many here can support me on that. And weren't you willing to help Joe bury that body with your shovel? Are going to quit posting now? Don't you read or remember your own posts.

I have no intention of not posting, it seems like you want me to. It's not my fault "Green Bug Scott" ran out of money to finish his car the right way. It happens to people all the time who think their "players".

The other bus with the new headliner that you mention at least had new metal welded in and the picture was posted. I think no one would find it acceptable to place a headliner over all the unatended rust shown in my posts and furthermore leaving all that rust alone is not considered "a type of repair" or least it is not one I have heard of. And now you want me create an account for Patrick to comment on the "fashion" of that "type" of repair.You got to be kidding, two nothings don't make something.

No the bus in question did not have all new metal welded in place and the headliner was installed over rust holes, the owner is fully aware of it, hell the owner helped do the work. But know he suddenly feels it isn't good enough for Patricks bus and now posts to bash the work. It could have something to do with his ongoing issues but we wont air that dirty laundry here, unless he wants to.

Your type of repair was totally unknown to everyone except for the person who performed that type of repair.Photobucket was down, remember? Statements were made that the roof was all welded up, photobucket was down, when asked, no photos were produced, So go figure!

My type of repair? Please explain that one.

When Patrick went to get his bus and he saw things as they were all he wanted was to get his bus back to Canada and not have it held randsome. but I guess that would be unthinkable. You claim he never complained, now remember that unthinkable I just mentioned. Patrick took his lumps and moved on and so will I after I post the rest of the pictures so that everyone can form there own opinions.

Let me help you with that one, I asked why didn't he complain when the bus was picket up. Ransom? is that a veiled reference to someone else that didn't pay their bill in full?

Now go have good meal in that favourite resturant of yours and remember to put a longer sock on that short pant leg.

You have a lot to say but it seems like for some reason you don't like to answer questions. [/b]

HI. WOODY

Thank you kindly for your post. I do sincerely hope everyone can enjoy it for what is worth.

Best Wishes. Gary[/quote]

No problem Sir, seems like you wanted me to post. And I too hope people take it for what its worth, which in your world isn't much. I think I answered most of your questions, why don't you answer a couple before EB has to come in and clean this up.

Who recommended Patrick use Vintage Metal Werks?

What was the trigger that made Patrick go get his bus?

If Patrick had good results from you in the past, why on earth would he go elsewhere?

Simple harmless questions, you said Patrick doesn't care to post about the situation and it appears you have taken the role as his spokesperson away from Greg, so just share with us unwashed masses the answers to these harmless questions.

Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:15 pm

No problem Sir, seems like you wanted me to post. And I too hope people take it for what its worth, which in your world isn't much. I think I answered most of your questions, why don't you answer a couple before EB has to come in and clean this up.

Who recommended Patrick use Vintage Metal Werks?

What was the trigger that made Patrick go get his bus?

If Patrick had good results from you in the past, why on earth would he go elsewhere?

Simple harmless questions, you said Patrick doesn't care to post about the situation and it appears you have taken the role as his spokesperson away from Greg, so just share with us unwashed masses the answers to these harmless questions.[/quote]

Hi woody

As my previous post says I"m moving on to what this forum is to be about.

I'll leave you alone.

Gary.

Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:48 pm

Lets move away from the pissing contest.

I'm sure we can all make our own conclusions by reading what was said and looking at the pics of: Joe's before and after, and Gary's before and after.

All the rest is BS. I'm sure Patrick isn't happy having to pay for the job to be done twice. I'd also be upset. I'm sure many others would be too. So at this point talking about costs/money I think is a waste because it doesn't sound to me like they were working on a shoestring budget here. So, is Patrick seeing some $$$ coming back his way because of this redo? Who knows? Definitely a fustrating spot to be in. At the end of the day it's about workmanship/craftsmanship. That is what stands out to me. The quality of work, bad or good.

I look forward to seeing the work and progress on projects. So please keep on posting the progress pics.

Later,

Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:01 pm

Is there a way to put an entire thread on "ignore"? This was an interesting project and a great resurrection until all of "The Real Housewives of the Samba" bullshit started.

Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:09 pm

petevdub wrote: Lets move away from the pissing contest.

I'm sure we can all make our own conclusions by reading what was said and looking at the pics of: Joe's before and after, and Gary's before and after.

All the rest is BS. I'm sure Patrick isn't happy having to pay for the job to be done twice. I'd also be upset. I'm sure many others would be too. So at this point talking about costs/money I think is a waste because it doesn't sound to me like they were working on a shoestring budget here. So, is Patrick seeing some $$$ coming back his way because of this redo? Who knows? Definitely a fustrating spot to be in. At the end of the day it's about workmanship/craftsmanship. That is what stands out to me. The quality of work, bad or good.

I look forward to seeing the work and progress on projects. So please keep on posting the progress pics.

Later,

WELL SAID LETS MOVE ON.

We'll show what we started with and where we took it with updates as we go with no more mention of Joe from here on. We've made our point, let everyone decide for themselves.

Gary.

Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:06 am

Ok ,That out of the way,lets play a little catch up and start with the cargo doors .

We fitted both doors and both need some attention.

Both doors were a little to long so we careful removed the exitisting replacement panels, which luckily were only tacked on. The lower rear door hinge pin was pretty stiff,probally seizied at on time from sitting causing the hinge to start breaking away from the frame. We replaced the pin then cut an access to weld the hinge back up to the frame and get a nice gap to the rear panel.The front door seemed ok but did the same there just in case. Finally after all the fits were good and tack welding the replacement panels back on they were welded up for good. The pinch weld on the rocker also got a little TLC.

Inside both doors got a little extra reinforcement welded in and some extra reinforcement in the centers to stop any oil can effect when the welds and dents are refinished.

Here the inside of the doors have been sandblasted refinished with worn out trim screw holes welded and any dents filled.

Finally the finished doors along with the engine cover refinished on the inside.

Will post more very soon. thanks Gary

Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:41 am

trikerboy wrote: No problem Sir, seems like you wanted me to post. And I too hope people take it for what its worth, which in your world isn't much. I think I answered most of your questions, why don't you answer a couple before EB has to come in and clean this up.

Who recommended Patrick use Vintage Metal Werks?

What was the trigger that made Patrick go get his bus?

If Patrick had good results from you in the past, why on earth would he go elsewhere?

Simple harmless questions, you said Patrick doesn't care to post about the situation and it appears you have taken the role as his spokesperson away from Greg, so just share with us unwashed masses the answers to these harmless questions.

Hi woody

As my previous post says I"m moving on to what this forum is to be about.

I'll leave you alone.

Gary.[/quote]

Nice edit Gary, shame you deleted all that stuff about me being a man of my word and such last night before I could respond.
If you guys feel better leaving the questions unanswered that's fine with me.
I'll leave you guys alone, unless somebody feels the need to call me back in.
It's good to see another bus saved and I hope Silent Patrick enjoys it for many years to come.

Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:16 am

After reading 16 pages of this thread and viewing the pics,I have come to the conclusion that...this bus in many eyes was not deserving as the rot seemed to infect every area.
It originally was the wrong candidate but boy did it get lucky!
Looking forward to getting beyond the drama...

Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:50 am

Everybody uses filler, especially on a project as infected by the tin worm as this one.
I don't care for the drama but I do appreciate seeing the panels with filler, before 2k. Helpful to bodywork amateurs like me.