TheSamba.com :: View topic - reliable highway engine build on the horizon

Mon May 21, 2012 4:20 pm

Looking to start putting together a motor for my 69 Beetle here in the next year or so. I had my mind made up on a 1915cc in the 110-130hp range, but then I think I read too many forums and am now frustratingly sure of nothing. I could really use some direct and specific advice. Thank you in advance.

What I am looking to build, in no great hurry, is a reliable, highway motor in the 130-150hp range that won't overheat in traffic on the occasional 105+F Texas day. As well, I don't want to have to spend every other Saturday tinkering just to keep it on the road. Money doesn't grow on trees around here, but I am not afraid to spend it on quality parts so I don't get stranded, only angry at myself.

That being said, the 1915 sounded like an inexpensive option, but I worry about heat issues with the larger cylinders. I am wondering if a 2110 (90.5 X 82) would be a safer, easier-to-cool choice.

I currently run a 1600SP with a hydraulic cam and love it. I don't feel like I'm missing a whole lot when comparing to a stock 1600SP. Does anyone consider hydraulic cams on bigger motors? If not, are there real concerns or is it just a taboo, unmanly thing? Later buses and Porsches used them, right? I'd be willing to sacrifice a little performance for not having to adjust lifters every oil change. Anyone have real hp loss figures for switching to hydraulic cams/lifters?

Naturally, I would balance every little thing I could. I am a machinist at a state university so, I will probably do most of my own machining. I have a low mileage AH case in really good shape. Everything measures out great. I plan on full flowing it and fitting it with a monster 30mm oil pump to push oil to a cooler at the front of the sedan.

The heads I am currently courting are CBPerformance's MiniWedge CNC ported heads (42 X 37.5) that flow 194.5 cfm's at 25".

All is up for debate. Please rip/help with whatever advice you have. I am very open to suggestions.

Mon May 21, 2012 4:37 pm

My all time favorite engine for a street driven car is still the 78 X 90.5 = 2007cc. No matter what anybody tells you the 90.5 pistons run cooler and last longer then the 94's. In the horrid Texas hummidity that is very important. Forget about the 42x37 CB heads. The aircooled.net or DRD L5 40x35.5 heads are plenty big enough to support 150 HP. Engle W-120 cam and dual 44 IDF's with 34mm venturies. That will get you a solid 130 HP and 80,000 miles without tearing it apart. Oh and tuned correctly you should get 26-28 MPG.

Mon May 21, 2012 5:38 pm

I would do instead, the 82x90.5 B piston combo using Dave's suggestions. I will go together like a stock engine with very little shimming, pushrod mods etc. Of course I havent had heat issues with a 2276 either. Heat is directly related to state of tune.........

Mon May 21, 2012 5:46 pm

I really like something similar to dave's suggestion, but maybe instead

78x92 (Thickwall)
DRD L5 or Tims stage 1 heads
Web 86B cam
Dual Dell DRLA 40's
A1 sidewinder exhaust

Mon May 21, 2012 7:33 pm

hmm 84x 92 thick wall &superpro heads.

Mon May 21, 2012 7:43 pm

For a 2 liter or 2110 that will see lots of highway miles and (I'm guessing) never be raced on a regular basis, some 40x35 well ported heads, 40 IDF's or Dels and a cam/rocker combo that peaks at 5500 or 6000 rpm would be just the ticket. Torque will be big right where you want it- at cruising speed. 42 or 44x37 heads and a cam that revs to 6500 don't serve the purpose; unless you decide that's what you want.

Mon May 21, 2012 8:00 pm

a 2007cc with the panchitos heads would COOL better than a 2110cc with the mini-wedge heads

Do one or the other, small heads on the 78 stroke, or the larger heads with 82+ stroke, either way should be a good setup

Mon May 21, 2012 8:05 pm

I think you are wasting your time and money with a big oil cooler and 30mm pump. Full flow the engine, and add them IF YOU NEED THEM.

If it's a bus, a 2007 is great, for a beetle do the 2110. 82mm crank with 5.4" rods. The heads you are considering are too big. A good 40 x 35 is plenty, with dual 44s and 1 5/8" exhaust. The Web 163 will be a nice choice for this engine. Don't get stupid on the heads and cam. Even an Engle 120 is a good choice, you'll still have a ton of bottom end.

Mon May 21, 2012 9:02 pm

I like the suggestions. I chatted with Pat Downs on the phone a week or two ago and he suggested the 2110. I should add that I don't want to pump 91 octane all year as this will be a real driver. I'd say the only "racing" it'll see is from stoplight to stoplight. Maybe 8.2-8.5:1 compression.

I do have a pair of 40 Kadrons that I am currently rebushing. Not a permanent solution, but I can run them until I put together a MegaSquirt setup or find some decent Italians.

Good thinking on the heads. CB's 2110 suggests those big MiniWedges, but with 1.1:1 rockers. How about the smaller (40 X 35.5) Panchito heads or similar with 1.25:1 rockers? Still too much?

Mon May 21, 2012 9:10 pm

I would go with the 120 cam, set up the bottom end, install pistons, check deck height and then order your heads fly cut to what you need for desired compression ratio. And if it were me I would order Steve Tim's stage ones. Steve and Greg are personable and will sell you exactly what you need.

Mon May 21, 2012 9:24 pm

if we keep the heads and carbs constant, say some 40 dells and those los panchitos or the tims stage1, the main difference between the 2007 and 2110 is the 2110 is a lower revving engine, just moves the powerband lower, on the highway I'd rather have the 78 stroke, less piston speed, more SmOOTER, but that would depend on what speed you like to drive

Tue May 22, 2012 9:14 am

Okay, how does a 2110cc with the following sound?

5.400" H-rods
28mm CB ultralight lifters
CB Panchito (40mm X 35.5mm) heads (that flow 168cfm @25" @0.500" lift)
AA 90.5 piston and barrel set
CB 4340 Chromoly 82mm crank
12.5 forged chromoly flywheel
chromoly pushrods
1.25:1 rockers
8mm head studs
Eagle cam (adv. duration 298/ duration at 0.050" 248/ lift at cam lobe 0.389")

Tue May 22, 2012 11:29 pm

Sounds like a solid combo.......

Tue May 22, 2012 11:33 pm

yeah, ok
that would have enough torque you could gear it a little higher than stock too, I would

Wed May 23, 2012 1:36 am

cweiland wrote: Okay, how does a 2110cc with the following sound?

5.400" H-rods
28mm CB ultralight lifters
CB Panchito (40mm X 35.5mm) heads (that flow 168cfm @25" @0.500" lift)
AA 90.5 piston and barrel set
CB 4340 Chromoly 82mm crank
12.5 forged chromoly flywheel
chromoly pushrods
1.25:1 rockers
8mm head studs
Eagle cam (adv. duration 298/ duration at 0.050" 248/ lift at cam lobe 0.389")

Sounds about right. Have Pat do a cut back on the intake valves on the Panchito´s. That´ll give you an easy 4 hp increase and more lower end torque. (But the Panchito´s work well anyways)
IMHO that cam has too much duration for 8,25 CR. You will loose a lot of torque. Set the CR up as to the recommendations by the cam supplier.
A 30 mm pump IS NOT NEEDED, especially not if you continue to use a mag case. It only robs power. Build your oil/cooling system correct and use the correct oil and you will have plenty of capacity in a 26 mm.
WRT cooling. It is much more important that the engine gets the air where it needs it. Sealed engine compartement, Vented lid etc. is mandatory when you want more power and reliablity.
A front mounted aux cooler may be/is a good thing if you do a lot of highway/freeway driving. If you just horace the V8´s in town, a belly mounted Atomic cooler is a better choice. be sure to control the oil temperature with a thermostat. The engine doesnt like to have to warm up 6 qrts of oil right away, not even i Texas ;-)
I absolutely do not like Megasquirt on a VW engine. To this day I have not seen one that works properly. I have thrown my love against the Electromotive Tec S. Slightly more expensive, but WAAY easier to work with. And all the annoying small problems more or less dissappears immediately (As long as you build the harness correct)
40 Dells will handle 130 hp easy. So there is no downside by using those. As for the tinkering with the whole thing, it basically "turns back" to craftmanship. If you choose the right parts it will run many many miles between services. That means f.i. Stay away from Redline and the varius push pull linkage systems out there. They simply are not durable. CB with modified bushings in the hex bar and pivot ball turned flat for 2,5 mm. Berg, GBOT or even a quality cable linkage is the way to go. They will have the usual 4-5-6 times readjustments when new. Then you can leave it for 5-10.000 miles or more. My personal record is 25.000 miles on a customers engine. (3 full seasons)

Hope this helps.
T

Wed May 23, 2012 4:52 am

Alstrup wrote: Set the CR up as to the recommendations by the cam supplier.

There are people that sell Engle cams that have Compression ratio suggestions. Nowhere does Engle Cams themselves have any recommendations for compression ratio. If Engle does have them please let me know where they are.

Wed May 23, 2012 8:12 pm

vwracerdave wrote: Alstrup wrote: Set the CR up as to the recommendations by the cam supplier.

There are people that sell Engle cams that have Compression ratio suggestions. Nowhere does Engle Cams themselves have any recommendations for compression ratio. If Engle does have them please let me know where they are.

EAGLE cam, not Engle. Part number 2242 from CB. Their engine builder's kits use this cam for their 1915cc and their 2110cc kits, 1.1:1 rockers on both.

However, they claim that the 1915 with Panchito heads (40X35.5), 1.1:1 rockers, and 8.5:1 CR can run mid-grade fuel. Also, that their 2110 with Mini Wedge heads (42X37.5), 1.1:1 rockers, and 8.7:1 CR needs premium fuel. The two are suggested to run the same 44mm IDF carbs with 1 1/2" and 1 5/8" headers, respectively. CB shows these differences make a 30hp split between the two motors, even though they use the same cam..

My plan was to use the larger displacement, smaller heads, 8.3-8.5:1 CR, decent flowing exhaust and 40mm dual Kadrons to begin with. I'll be on the lookout for larger carbs or a fuel injection setup.

The only thing left to figure is if 1.25:1 rockers are worth it or not on this setup with this cam. I've heard that they can severely reduce cam lobe life. CB isn't using them on either of these motors and I am looking for long engine life. Are 1.25:1 rockers worth the hp gain or are 1.1:1 rockers plenty sufficient?

And, will mid-grade fuel be fine here?

Thanks again, fellow veedubbers.

Wed May 23, 2012 8:51 pm

well, I have not run the numbers on it, but I expect the CR will end up quite a bit higher than 8.25 with the deck set tight, you do have to take that into consideration. If you want to adjust the CR with bigger deck height then I suppose 8.25 would be ok. It would be preferable to set the deck tight and run closer to 9-1, though CB may not have a way to CNC that

kadrons? ok, but you have to promise to get proper carbs ASAP

VW style 1.25(1.2-1.22 ratio) and swivel feet would be ok, if you get the dual springs, wiper type rockers usually lift more like 1.3-1, which is a bit more than you really need, but you could get a smoother cam with lower lobe lift, if you want to really make a nice setup

Wed May 23, 2012 8:55 pm

The dynamic CR seems awfully low to me. With the stated CR of 8.5 and 8.7 for each engine, the DCR's are 6.1:1 and 6.36:1 respectively. Perhaps CB recommends these CR's to err on the cautious side??

Wed May 23, 2012 9:12 pm

cweiland wrote: Okay, how does a 2110cc with the following sound?

5.400" H-rods
28mm CB ultralight lifters
CB Panchito (40mm X 35.5mm) heads (that flow 168cfm @25" @0.500" lift)
AA 90.5 piston and barrel set
CB 4340 Chromoly 82mm crank
12.5 forged chromoly flywheel
chromoly pushrods
1.25:1 rockers
8mm head studs
Eagle cam (adv. duration 298/ duration at 0.050" 248/ lift at cam lobe 0.389")
Sounds like my engine! Same cam (CB 2242) Los Panchito heads and all but I went with the longer 5.5" H rods - and my calculate compression will be right at 9.5 - you might want to hike yours up just a tad. You'll get better power and with that cam you may be able to burn 89 octane. I'm also using an Air Cooled dual advance dist.

Its still on the bench - been sidetracked for a few months with other stuff that took priority - and waiting for the nephew to paint the Ghia that the 2110 will go into. I have a lighter flywheel - a 10.5# one and will hang a Kennedy 1700# cover to it. The engine is assembled complete to the heads - just have to set up the rocker spacing and get the oil pump in and plumb the full flow fittings. I've also got 44mm HPMX carbs set up by Art Thraen. Either get bigger carbs than the Kadrons or downsize the cam some - or use 1.1:1 rockers until you get larger carbs.

Your combo should make for a very nice daily driver.