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Tue Jul 10, 2012 9:00 am

Your track (front end width vs rear end width) is going to be way off, your front end is going to be about 8-9 inches wider then your rear end width. Not sure what this is going to do with driving characteristics. Not only to mention how funny it's going to look. I really think you should look into 3x3 rear arms to "balance" things out. Or are you planning on wider rear arms at a later time? I just don't see the reasoning behind all the front end work if you're basically leaving rear "stock".

Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:19 pm

vingsthing wrote: Your track (front end width vs rear end width) is going to be way off, your front end is going to be about 8-9 inches wider then your rear end width. Not sure what this is going to do with driving characteristics. Not only to mention how funny it's going to look. I really think you should look into 3x3 rear arms to "balance" things out. Or are you planning on wider rear arms at a later time? I just don't see the reasoning behind all the front end work if you're basically leaving rear "stock".

I just can't afford to buy coilovers atm. Thats also the reason for going with 2 1/4 X 1 trailing arms up front. 3X3's do require coilovers, correct?

Fri Jul 13, 2012 7:52 am

3x3 rear trailing arms work fine with torsion bars. 2 1/4 front arms do not work well with stock torsion stacks. Most quality extended front arms do not even have the square hole in them to fit the torsion bars. They have a half inch hole for a through rod. You then have to use coils with them. I think the thing you want to do is work on the rear end first and then move to the front when you budget allows. About 500 or 600 bucks would set you up pretty well in back. The number is much higher when you go to the front with quality parts. You can put an adjuster in your front beam and get some extra ride height with very little cash outlay.

Fri Jul 13, 2012 7:57 am

3x3 rear arms do NOT require that you go coilovers. You will have to fabricate new mounts though, most people do this by incorporating the upper mount with their roll cage. There is a sticky at the top where people posted their suspension setups.

Fri Jul 13, 2012 8:51 pm

2manybugs wrote: 3x3 rear trailing arms work fine with torsion bars. 2 1/4 front arms do not work well with stock torsion stacks. Most quality extended front arms do not even have the square hole in them to fit the torsion bars. They have a half inch hole for a through rod. You then have to use coils with them. I think the thing you want to do is work on the rear end first and then move to the front when you budget allows. About 500 or 600 bucks would set you up pretty well in back. The number is much higher when you go to the front with quality parts. You can put an adjuster in your front beam and get some extra ride height with very little cash outlay.

Is there an aftermarket or HD torsion stack that I can buy that will work well with 2 1/4 front arms?

Fri Jul 13, 2012 11:23 pm

Not really, just go coils. Did you find arms 2 1/4 that even have the square hole in that the square torsion packs go into?

Sat Jul 14, 2012 9:07 am

knowitall wrote: 2manybugs wrote: 3x3 rear trailing arms work fine with torsion bars. 2 1/4 front arms do not work well with stock torsion stacks. Most quality extended front arms do not even have the square hole in them to fit the torsion bars. They have a half inch hole for a through rod. You then have to use coils with them. I think the thing you want to do is work on the rear end first and then move to the front when you budget allows. About 500 or 600 bucks would set you up pretty well in back. The number is much higher when you go to the front with quality parts. You can put an adjuster in your front beam and get some extra ride height with very little cash outlay.

Is there an aftermarket or HD torsion stack that I can buy that will work well with 2 1/4 front arms?
Sway Away makes heavy duty leaves that will work. Tweeds makes 2 1/4 arms for leaf springs. You don't have to run coilovers if it is not in your budget.

Sat Jul 14, 2012 9:22 am

2manybugs wrote: Not really, just go coils. Did you find arms 2 1/4 that even have the square hole in that the square torsion packs go into?

As posted above by Baja5, Tweeds and a couple of other companies do make 2 1/4 arms that have square holes.

Thank you guys so much, all of you, for your opinions and feedback to my questions. You have saved me time and money by replying to my posts and I really appreciate it. I hope one day I can return the favor.

Sat Jul 14, 2012 10:10 am

2manybugs wrote: I forgot to address your 930 axle size question. The 930 axles are larger in diameter and spline count than bus. If you are going to really use this car and want it to last I suggest you build it using 930 joints. If you are going to buy axles anyway you might as well get the larger 930 units. They do not cost much more than the bus axles. It is the same way with the 930 joints if you are going to buy new. The biggest bang for the buck though, if you don't need the toughest car you can build is to have a pair of 2 1/2 by 2 1/2 arms built with bus bearing houisings. You will be able to use the stubs, drive axles, boots, bolts and even the bearings (68 to 71 bus) out of a (if you really want to save money) wrecked bus. You can use bus drum brakes or Avery's has a disk brake kit that will fit the bus stubs.

2manybugs,

I have decided to take your advice and go through averys for my rear suspension arms. Do you recommend the 2 1/2 x 2 1/2 arms over 3x3's? I was kind of leaning towards the 3x3's. If I did go with the 3x3's, how do I know what angle to tell them to set the camber at? Do they work with spring plates or would I need to switch to coil overs?

So, I want to get my arms built for bus stub axles and use 930 cv's because you posted that this would help with the angle on the CV's. So do I ask for bus to 930 conversion stub axles?

Everyone else,

I am on the fence about switching from a T1 trans over to an 002. If I were not running an adapter plate to mate to a SR20DET nissan turbo motor, it would be an easy choice. Is the bus clutch larger? If it is, could I use my existing type 1 clutch and flywheel conversion assembly I got from Kennedy Eng Products? It's made to adapt my motor to a type 1 trans with a custom flywheel and one of their stronger type 1 disc and pressure plate. It has very low mileage and is in good condition so I would like to retain it if possible.

Brett

Sat Jul 14, 2012 2:37 pm

The reason the 2 1/2 x2 1/2 arms are built is to take advantage of using stock bus axles and cv joints in a bug torsion housing with a bus tranny. If you go 3 x 3 with a bus box you will have to use a 19 1/4 long drive axle that will be aftermarket. You can go 930 cv joints or bus joints as they make 19 1/4 axles for either CV size. An advantage of using aftermarket axles is that the spline is much longer and there is no shoulder on the axle so that the axle will float through the CV star. Whe the arm goes through its travel the drive axle will plunge through the splines in the CV making up the difference of distance between the CV joints (which changes as the arm goes though it's travel) . With stock axles you are limited to how much plunge there is in the CV joints. With aftermarket axles you get the CV plunge plus the plunge through the CV splines, that equals much more wheel travel.
When you call Avery's and order the arms they will ask you about ride height and what kind of brakes you plan to use. To determine ride height set you car on a flat area and jack it up to the level you want the car to sit using the tires you plan to use on the car. Measure from the center of the torsion bar ( or eyball the center of the torsion tube) to the ground. Then measure from the center of the stub axle to the ground. Subtract the stub axle measurment from the torsion measurment and that is your ride height. It will be about 3 and a half inches give or take. Generally if the spring plate is touching the bottom stop of the torsion housing it is 3 1/4" give or take a little. The arms will be built so that when your car is sitting at the ride height you give them the camber of the wheel will be zero (or as close to zero that fabricating and slight variations in the stock torsion housings will allow). You will not be sorry you went with Averys' arms. When you see them the will make you smile because of how they look. The will make you smile again when you fit them onto the car. (shamless plug)

Sat Jul 14, 2012 2:48 pm

You should ask Kennedy if the adapter kit is the same for a bug as a bus. 002 trannies take the same size flywheel as a 12 volt bug trannie. The engine bolt pattern is the same and they use the same clutch. I don't know why there would be any difference in the adapter. I do know one thing though. If you are going to use this car you will want the bus box. They are much stronger that type 1 boxes. You might as well build it right from the start. If you put a bug trannie in you will have longer drive axles. If you blow up your type one box and decide to go to bus you will have to invest in new drive axles or maybe you can have them shortened. You can shorten axles on a lathe at increments of 1/4" (or at least that is the least you can cut because of having to remachine the snap ring back in).

Sat Jul 14, 2012 5:07 pm

2manybugs wrote: The reason the 2 1/2 x2 1/2 arms are built is to take advantage of using stock bus axles and cv joints in a bug torsion housing with a bus tranny. If you go 3 x 3 with a bus box you will have to use a 19 1/4 long drive axle that will be aftermarket. You can go 930 cv joints or bus joints as they make 19 1/4 axles for either CV size. An advantage of using aftermarket axles is that the spline is much longer and there is no shoulder on the axle so that the axle will float through the CV star. Whe the arm goes through its travel the drive axle will plunge through the splines in the CV making up the difference of distance between the CV joints (which changes as the arm goes though it's travel) . With stock axles you are limited to how much plunge there is in the CV joints. With aftermarket axles you get the CV plunge plus the plunge through the CV splines, that equals much more wheel travel.
When you call Avery's and order the arms they will ask you about ride height and what kind of brakes you plan to use. To determine ride height set you car on a flat area and jack it up to the level you want the car to sit using the tires you plan to use on the car. Measure from the center of the torsion bar ( or eyball the center of the torsion tube) to the ground. Then measure from the center of the stub axle to the ground. Subtract the stub axle measurment from the torsion measurment and that is your ride height. It will be about 3 and a half inches give or take. Generally if the spring plate is touching the bottom stop of the torsion housing it is 3 1/4" give or take a little. The arms will be built so that when your car is sitting at the ride height you give them the camber of the wheel will be zero (or as close to zero that fabricating and slight variations in the stock torsion housings will allow). You will not be sorry you went with Averys' arms. When you see them the will make you smile because of how they look. The will make you smile again when you fit them onto the car. (shamless plug)

With 3x3's, I wouldnt think there would be any reason to notch my spring plates, correct? Also, wouldn't the ride height be different with the 3x3's than it would with stock arms? I assume when I do all this measuring, its with the stock setup?

As far as ride height goes, I will be switching tire sizes as the car will be driven on road as well as in the sand dunes. I need to run a desert trak or paddle type tire in the dunes. So I'm thinking I should pick a reasonable all terrain tire size and get the arms built for that because in the sand it really won't matter if the camber is off by a bit in the sand. 30" tires are a decent size for the street and an occasional dirt road, wouldn't you think? What do you run on yours?

Now I'm not sure what size tire will even fit on the stock suspension. I think with the 3x3's, I can accommodate a larger diameter tire, is this correct? I have 30x9.5 on 15 inch rims out back and 235/75/15 on the front. In the rear, I have about an inch of clearance it looks like before the tire hits the torsion housing.

Sat Jul 14, 2012 5:45 pm

Maybe I can clarify about the ride height. Ride height is just the height you want to see the car when it is done. You have to build the suspension and adjust the springs to make that happen. If you put 3x3 arms on stock springs and don't even twist the bars up a little you will probably not end up any higher than stock. The extra 3 inches of leverage will twist the bar more than a stock arm. Of course you will add height with the larger tires. Ride height is just the mixture of tire diameter and the angle you drop the trailing arm to when the car is sitting static. The point of the two measurments is that the trailing arm builder is trying to determine at what angle the trailing arm is dropping to at ride height so he knows where to weld the bearing carrier into the arm so that it reads zero camber at that point. Different ride hights require the bearing carrier to be welded in at different angles. That is one reason people complain about the camber in the offshore built arms. They just put the housings in there and send them off. Who knows at what angle the arms were built for?
If you want to get a lot of wheel travel out of the car it helps to notch the spring plate or cut off some of the bottom stop. You should have at least 25 percent of your travel be down travel or suspension movement down from ride height. If you ask the Fox engineers they will say 33 percent down travel. In a Baja your tires may hit the body before you run out of CV joint angle. If you are using 930's and want them to last I recomend 22 to 24 degrees, 19 degrees for type 2. Everyone seems to have a different opinion on these degrees but I like to be on the safe side instead of busting joints out in the desert. When your wheel goes down you can take it to the limit of the joint angle you set because there is nothing like the body in the way. A good Baja builder will lower the transaxle as far as he can in the frame so he can take get more angle in the CV before the tire will hit the body (of course that depends on tire size, wheel offset and trailing arm size.

Sat Jul 14, 2012 7:47 pm

2manybugs wrote: Maybe I can clarify about the ride height. Ride height is just the height you want to see the car when it is done. You have to build the suspension and adjust the springs to make that happen. If you put 3x3 arms on stock springs and don't even twist the bars up a little you will probably not end up any higher than stock. The extra 3 inches of leverage will twist the bar more than a stock arm. Of course you will add height with the larger tires. Ride height is just the mixture of tire diameter and the angle you drop the trailing arm to when the car is sitting static. The point of the two measurments is that the trailing arm builder is trying to determine at what angle the trailing arm is dropping to at ride height so he knows where to weld the bearing carrier into the arm so that it reads zero camber at that point. Different ride hights require the bearing carrier to be welded in at different angles. That is one reason people complain about the camber in the offshore built arms. They just put the housings in there and send them off. Who knows at what angle the arms were built for?
If you want to get a lot of wheel travel out of the car it helps to notch the spring plate or cut off some of the bottom stop. You should have at least 25 percent of your travel be down travel or suspension movement down from ride height. If you ask the Fox engineers they will say 33 percent down travel. In a Baja your tires may hit the body before you run out of CV joint angle. If you are using 930's and want them to last I recomend 22 to 24 degrees, 19 degrees for type 2. Everyone seems to have a different opinion on these degrees but I like to be on the safe side instead of busting joints out in the desert. When your wheel goes down you can take it to the limit of the joint angle you set because there is nothing like the body in the way. A good Baja builder will lower the transaxle as far as he can in the frame so he can take get more angle in the CV before the tire will hit the body (of course that depends on tire size, wheel offset and trailing arm size.

Okay now I understand. Unfortunately this means i need to install my motor prior to doing these measurements. I do want to keep my center of gravity as low as possible so I do not tip over on steep sand dunes if I happen to stall or break something. So maybe I will just plan on having my ride height set where the spring plates hit the stops and just cut off the stops for down travel. Does this sound acceptable?

I found a guy in my area that sells rebuilt 002's. He sells them outright and package one includes stock gear ratios, welded gears, hard key, new syncros, mainshaft bearing and seals, steel forks, steel shift ball, for $700 no core or $500 with a core.
The next one he offers has 5.38 ring and pinion, close ratio 3rd and 4th, hard key, steel shift ball, new syncros, new main shaft bearing, gusseted shift bracket, main shaft plate, new seals for $800 exchange.
I was thinking to go with the $700 option and rebuilding it with all the goodies after I have saved up some $$. Does this sound like a good way to go or do I need the close ratio 3rd and fourth?

Thank you,
Brett

Sat Jul 14, 2012 9:07 pm

I guess I still have not made it clear. Ride height is just how high you want the car to be when it is all done. You don't have to put your engine in to determine that. Just jack the car up and stand back and look at it and see if it looks right for what you want to use the car for. If you want the spring plates on the stops that will work for a good height. You won't even have to measure the car up for that. Tell Avery's that and they will know what to do.

Sat Jul 14, 2012 10:11 pm

2manybugs wrote: I guess I still have not made it clear. Ride height is just how high you want the car to be when it is all done. You don't have to put your engine in to determine that. Just jack the car up and stand back and look at it and see if it looks right for what you want to use the car for. If you want the spring plates on the stops that will work for a good height. You won't even have to measure the car up for that. Tell Avery's that and they will know what to do.

Ya I gotcha. I was just thinking about the weight of the motor but that wont matter if I tell them I want the spring plates on the stops. I will have to put more preload on the rear torsions to adjust the final ride height once I get everything bolted together because of the weight of the motor.

Aslo I have to contact averys and ask them if I can retain the drum brake setup with the type 2 arms. The type 1 arms said they will work with drums but it didnt say anything on thier site about the type 2.

Thanks a lot!

Brett

Sat Jul 14, 2012 10:41 pm

talk to Lothringer Engineering they will get you set up the right way
the first time they are in La Verne Ca
go with Foddrill arms and spindles and a wider beam with 4 adjusters on the front you can use 2 sets of stock leaf springs or buy new Sway a Way leaf springs
steering
I would go with a SACO rack and pinion or a GM Saginaw box with Corvette gears - 1" aluminum Tie rods with International tie rod ends
have them do the work so you dont have any bump steer for the steering
go with Lothringer arms in the rear
930 Sway a Way axles and stock 930 CV joints
Mc Kenzies can get your stub axles converted to accept the 930's
28mm torsion bars come in 3 different lengths get the long ones put a Sway a Way King Kong adjuster in the rear notch the spring plates

? have I spent enough of your money yet ?

Sun Jul 15, 2012 10:05 am

knowitall wrote:

Aslo I have to contact averys and ask them if I can retain the drum brake setup with the type 2 arms. The type 1 arms said they will work with drums but it didnt say anything on thier site about the type 2.

Thanks a lot!

Brett

Yes, they can set you up with bus bearing carriers so you can use bus stub axles and bus backing plates and drums. They also have bus long stub axles that use 930 CV joints if you go that way.

Sun Jul 15, 2012 10:51 am

airborndad wrote:

? have I spent enough of your money yet ?

Thats exactly my issue. I am shopping around for the best prices. I have done TONS of research on pricing and quality. I don't want to spend any more $ than I have to. I also want to do the work myself not only to save $, but to learn how everything fits together. "If you didn't build it, it aint yours" is a saying I really like. Sure, I can open a line of credit and get all this done by a shop of my choice but then I'm stuck bringing it back to them when something goes wrong.

So far, the best bang for the buck on parts such as axles, front chromo arms, beam, spring leafs, and drive flanges seem to be from Appletreeauto. For my 3x3's I'm going to go with Averys because I do not want ANY camber issues. This is VERY important to me because I will be driving on the street. For steering, I'm going to go with a 14" rack steering kit either from Dans or Appletree. C.V.'s will be from Dans, the HD Empi 930's which they say will allow 28*.

I still need to call Averys and compare pricing for all the stuff I have listed including bus to 930 stub axles.

Sun Jul 15, 2012 8:40 pm

Quote: Thats exactly my issue. I also want to do the work myself not only to save $, but to learn how everything fits together. "If you didn't build it, it aint yours" is a saying I really like. Sure, I can open a line of credit and get all this done by a shop of my choice but then I'm stuck bringing it back to them when something goes wrong.
So far, the best bang for the buck on parts such as axles, front chromo arms, beam, spring leafs, and drive flanges seem to be from Appletreeauto. For my 3x3's I'm going to go with Averys because I do not want ANY camber issues. This is VERY important to me because I will be driving on the street. For steering, I'm going to go with a 14" rack steering kit either from Dans or Appletree. . [/size][/size][/quote] a few ?'s then
Can you throw down a quality Weld ?
access to machine shop ? that will save some $ right there
is it already IRS ? having the pivots in the right spot helps alot
if you want to save some money
on the front end
you can keep the stock front arms and reinforce the stock front lower arms and extend the shock mounting point
make the spindles heavy duty by sleeving them plugging the speedo cable hole and gusseting the carrier and the steering arm chop the pan head off and throw it away extend the beam mounts out when you build your cage when you build the front beam you can go with 4 adjusters then use 2 sets of stock leafs
in the rear you can extend the stock rear trailing arms 2 or 3 inches then reinforce them if your going be driving it on the street 3X3's will just give you problems with LEO's the car will actually handle better with just the front widened
its also cheaper to buy the good parts 1 time verses buying shitty parts then finding they will break and put your car upsidedown or worse