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Tue Jul 17, 2012 4:13 pm

What are the pros and cons of empi vs weber?

A single center mounted double barrel 40IDF carb.

Aside from the $200 larger price tag on the weber.

I was also told by my parts dealer that empi will gladly take back any carb to fix, then send back.

Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:58 pm

The EMPI carbs suck. A pain in the ass to tune and most of the time will not stay in tune. We have pulled the guts out of the empi's and replaced them with weber parts and got better results. Buy a weber set from cb performance and bolt in and go.

Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:27 pm

Weber designed, developed, and manufactured their IDF carb. EMPI sent a Weber carb to China and had them copy it.

Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:42 pm

All the HPMX carbs I have installed have run great with no tuning issues, pretty much set and forget. My Weber 48IDFs were a handfull to get tuned.

As with any carb you purchase, they should be taken apart, cleaned, floats set and make sure all the screws are tight.

There was a thread a while back where some of the big carb guys were complaining that the new batch of true Webers pretty much sucked and that the HPMXs were a better carb. mharney was one of them.

brad

Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:26 pm

oolcu812 wrote: What are the pros and cons of empi vs weber?

A single center mounted double barrel 40IDF carb.

Aside from the $200 larger price tag on the weber.

I was also told by my parts dealer that empi will gladly take back any carb to fix, then send back.

If you dont get a deluxe manifold from aircooled.net and make sure you have good manifold preheat from the exhaust (may have to modify) your engines performance and MPG wil suck.

Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:17 am

there is no difference, they both suck
buy this, it runs better and costs less
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1289028

Wed Jul 18, 2012 3:11 am

modok wrote: there is no difference, they both suck
buy this, it runs better and costs less
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1289028

You know, if they just HAD to send a carb off to China to copy, why couldn't they have sent a Dellorto? Is it just more fun to rip off a design that someone else is still trying to legitimately produce?

Wed Jul 18, 2012 3:30 am

I have no problem with it,the result is the same, since new carbs are plentiful old ones are cheaper

Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:46 am

the2ndcashboy wrote: You know, if they just HAD to send a carb off to China to copy, why couldn't they have sent a Dellorto? Is it just more fun to rip off a design that someone else is still trying to legitimately produce?

Because Weber IDF's are used by many other car groups besides VW's . EMPI may be cheap but they are not stupid. EMPI does market their HPMX carbs to these other car groups also.

Wed Jul 18, 2012 7:19 am

slalombuggy wrote: All the HPMX carbs I have installed have run great with no tuning issues, pretty much set and forget. My Weber 48IDFs were a handfull to get tuned.

As with any carb you purchase, they should be taken apart, cleaned, floats set and make sure all the screws are tight.

There was a thread a while back where some of the big carb guys were complaining that the new batch of true Webers pretty much sucked and that the HPMXs were a better carb. mharney was one of them.

brad

Pretty much agree with Brad....

Biggest problems is people do not know how to tune a carb, and don't know a center mount takes different hardware (preheat) than over the port mounts (duals)... Also if you do not learn to adjust linkage carbs drive you nuts and people blame carb when real problem is maladjusted linkage....

I have a set of 44 HPMX on street car and set of Weber 44 IDF on race car... That being said, the are pretty much equal in maintenance and tuning issues.....

Dale

Wed Jul 18, 2012 7:22 am

the2ndcashboy wrote:

You know, if they just HAD to send a carb off to China to copy, why couldn't they have sent a Dellorto? Is it just more fun to rip off a design that someone else is still trying to legitimately produce?

Its all about market demand..... I have heard people rave about Dels but I have also heard people despise them..... Got to wonder why something goes extinct... NOT....

Dale

Wed Jul 18, 2012 8:47 am

EMPI are morons. If they were going to copy/clone a carb, they should have copied the DRLA!

The problem with buying EMPI carbs is you wind up with EMPI linkage, filters, and intakes too. It's not just about the carbs.

Even if the carbs are the same, using that other EMPI stuff makes me want to throw up, words can't describe how crappy those parts are. For $30 more you can get some quality stuff instead of chinese junk.

They obviously have Bean Counters running the company instead of making quality parts and letting the profit fall where it does. They appear to operate on the premise that if they make it cheap enough, they'll sell lots and the majority will only bitch/complain about it and won't ever return anything, and they make money. If consumers returned bad parts, and disputed charges when their return was refused, then things would change.

People can't help themselves buying junk, when they either

1) don't know any better (which is excusable for a while)
or
2) know better, but can't help themselves at the perceived "deal" they are getting.

If you absolutely cannot help yourself and want to buy the HPMXs, at least get non-EMPI intakes/linkage/filters. Sell the EMPI stuff to someone that doesn't know any better and wants "a deal", but you should not try to use that crap, it's horrible.

Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:16 am

[email protected] wrote: EMPI are morons. If they were going to copy/clone a carb, they should have copied the DRLA!

The problem with buying EMPI carbs is you wind up with EMPI linkage, filters, and intakes too. It's not just about the carbs.

Even if the carbs are the same, using that other EMPI stuff makes me want to throw up, words can't describe how crappy those parts are. For $30 more you can get some quality stuff instead of chinese junk.

They obviously have Bean Counters running the company instead of making quality parts and letting the profit fall where it does. They appear to operate on the premise that if they make it cheap enough, they'll sell lots and the majority will only bitch/complain about it and won't ever return anything, and they make money. If consumers returned bad parts, and disputed charges when their return was refused, then things would change.

People can't help themselves buying junk, when they either

1) don't know any better (which is excusable for a while)
or
2) know better, but can't help themselves at the perceived "deal" they are getting.

If you absolutely cannot help yourself and want to buy the HPMXs, at least get non-EMPI intakes/linkage/filters. Sell the EMPI stuff to someone that doesn't know any better and wants "a deal", but you should not try to use that crap, it's horrible.

And without profits where would your company be (not defending EMPI here)....

Dale

Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:20 am

"....instead of making quality parts and letting the profit fall where it does."

There is nothing wrong with profit. But profit as the sole goal results in fraud and complete junk leaving the premises. There is more profit selling stuff for a dollar that cost $.04, than selling something for $2 that cost $1.50.

Dale M. wrote:
And without profits where would your company be (not defending EMPI here)....

Dale

Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:35 am

I replaced all the hardware on my Empi linkage and never had a problem with it. Yes the screws and bolts supplied are total BS, I just drilled bigger holes and used 1/4" quality hardware on all hte arms. the linkage rods have never been an issue, and I say they take a damn site more abus on an autocross track or lapping session than a daily driver.

Without Empi we would be paying $1500 for Webers (yes that is what they used to cost us in Canada) and hardly anyone I know would be driving a performance car. the price of carbs is what kept me running a 1776 for 15 years.

No bussiness I know of could survive making a $.25 on the dollar on parts. And besides, profit as a sole goal is the entire American bussiness model. Keep the shareholders happy.

brad

brad

Wed Jul 18, 2012 10:36 am

slalombuggy wrote: I replaced all the hardware on my Empi linkage and never had a problem with it. Yes the screws and bolts supplied are total BS, I just drilled bigger holes and used 1/4" quality hardware on all hte arms. the linkage rods have never been an issue, and I say they take a damn site more abus on an autocross track or lapping session than a daily driver.

Without Empi we would be paying $1500 for Webers (yes that is what they used to cost us in Canada) and hardly anyone I know would be driving a performance car. the price of carbs is what kept me running a 1776 for 15 years.

No bussiness I know of could survive making a $.25 on the dollar on parts. And besides, profit as a sole goal is the entire American bussiness model. Keep the shareholders happy.

brad

brad

"And besides, profit as a sole goal is the entire American bussiness model. Keep the shareholders happy."

It's also a BIG reason our economy is in shambles and with no end in sight. Great business model too model :roll:

Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:01 am

vwracerdave wrote: the2ndcashboy wrote: You know, if they just HAD to send a carb off to China to copy, why couldn't they have sent a Dellorto? Is it just more fun to rip off a design that someone else is still trying to legitimately produce?

Because Weber IDF's are used by many other car groups besides VW's . EMPI may be cheap but they are not stupid. EMPI does market their HPMX carbs to these other car groups also.

If they were calling it an IDF, then I'd go along with that arguement, but the "HPMX" doesn't look exactly like a Weber. Its more "weber-style". How many people out there could tell the difference between a DRLA and IDF? The same people that are buying a Weber copy HPMX would happily buy a Dell copy HPMX. And they'd be getting a better carb.

And Dale, I've never heard someone do an apples to apples comparison of DRLA's to IDF's and conclude the IDF's are better.

Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:22 am

if you "Copy" a design that is no longer available, you'll get praise instead of criticism. That was a huge mistake IMO.

Copying an existing product is theft.

Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:23 pm

the2ndcashboy wrote: vwracerdave wrote: the2ndcashboy wrote: You know, if they just HAD to send a carb off to China to copy, why couldn't they have sent a Dellorto? Is it just more fun to rip off a design that someone else is still trying to legitimately produce?

Because Weber IDF's are used by many other car groups besides VW's . EMPI may be cheap but they are not stupid. EMPI does market their HPMX carbs to these other car groups also.

If they were calling it an IDF, then I'd go along with that arguement, but the "HPMX" doesn't look exactly like a Weber. Its more "weber-style". How many people out there could tell the difference between a DRLA and IDF? The same people that are buying a Weber copy HPMX would happily buy a Dell copy HPMX. And they'd be getting a better carb.

And Dale, I've never heard someone do an apples to apples comparison of DRLA's to IDF's and conclude the IDF's are better.

IF you take all the WEBER logos off the IDF and all the EMPI logos off the HPMX carb you can not tell the difference...... The HPMX is identical copy of WEBER right down to the casting marks on top plate that shows when WEBER top piece were manufactured...

The only reason people are so in love with Dells are they appear to be easier to tune because they run a tad bit richer on bottom end and that causes a more forgiving idle, maybe not as clean (lean) as a Weber but smoother... But a good tuner can make a Weber run as good as or better than a Dell...

Also did it ever occur to anybody to ask the question "did EMPI get permission from Weber to use the design", and Weber said "sure but" you can not call it a Weber!... I'm sure EMPI is smart enough not to get caught in something that would cost millions in a patent/copyright infringement lawsuit... You people give to little credit to EMPI as a business entity...

Dale

Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:29 pm

Dale M. wrote: the2ndcashboy wrote: vwracerdave wrote: the2ndcashboy wrote: You know, if they just HAD to send a carb off to China to copy, why couldn't they have sent a Dellorto? Is it just more fun to rip off a design that someone else is still trying to legitimately produce?

Because Weber IDF's are used by many other car groups besides VW's . EMPI may be cheap but they are not stupid. EMPI does market their HPMX carbs to these other car groups also.

If they were calling it an IDF, then I'd go along with that arguement, but the "HPMX" doesn't look exactly like a Weber. Its more "weber-style". How many people out there could tell the difference between a DRLA and IDF? The same people that are buying a Weber copy HPMX would happily buy a Dell copy HPMX. And they'd be getting a better carb.

And Dale, I've never heard someone do an apples to apples comparison of DRLA's to IDF's and conclude the IDF's are better.

IF you take all the WEBER logos off the IDF and all the EMPI logos off the HPMX carb you can not tell the difference...... The HPMX is identical copy of WEBER right down to the casting marks on top plate that shows when WEBER top piece were manufactured...

The only reason people are so in love with Dells are they are easier to tune because they run a tad bit richer on bottom end and that causes a more forgiving idle, maybe not as clean (lean) as a Weber but smoother... But a good tuner can make a Weber run as good as or better than a Dell...

Dale

What about the fact that the idle jets are on top? Just that alone would tip the balance for me. Its enough of a pain when my Dells foul an idle jet. It would get really tiresome if the jets were in the side like most of the IDFs. Don't the Dells also have an extra progression hole for smoother transition?