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Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:07 am

I dont buy into the std's , more of kinda like guidelines,but I dont realy pay attn to them at all. like the wally world motor oil that meets all the requirements.but was pure junk & killed oh so many engines.just because something meets a std dosent mean it is any good.( have you taseted the water in some parts of the country???)

Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:08 pm

Manx1173 wrote: raygreenwood wrote: Manx1173 wrote: Unless a test is performed per ASTM Standards, it is a "trick" (i.e. a salesman at a show). A rep for Schaeffer showed their oil to me for our drill fleet using the bearing test, however, he didn't know what the results meant (purely comparison). I would rely on more modern oil analysis methods.

Dont even get me started on ASTM.....There is no comparable test in ASTM's inventory.

Also, ASTM is not the be all and end all for testing. There are a great many material tests out there that have no ASTM equivalent and never will. I work in an engineering based medical facility that uses in excess of 4000 different materials and approximately 1100 main processes and about 3 times that in sub-processes.
A great many material parameters and related testing....ASTM has nothing to offer for.....for the entire industry.
ASTM only makes testing specs for processes that can operate across one main spectrum for an industry. When those same specs are applied across a wider variation of end usage for the same type of product....the ASTM spec invariably fails.

Back to the point....for what it is actually used for (the Timken OK load test)....it is 100% modern as there is no modern or different equivalent to what it looks for.....i.e. Galling at a micro level due to improper levels (or mismatched ingredients) of metallic or synthetic EP additives for lubricating oils.

You can hang around the ASTM website for the rest of your life...and there will never be a more modern replacement for the Timken OK load test.

You may however......actually find an ASTM procedure for properly applying the Timkin OK load test... :wink:

Oh....like ASTM D-2509 for greases and ASTM D-2782 for fluid lubricants.....both of which you need to know well to actually PROPERLY apply the Timken OK load test. But....both of these standards are 100% worthless without the test (an several other tests that do things like measure lubricant washout and heat tolerance).

By the way...its sad that "snake oil" salesmen bastardize the TOK test...because its actually fairly complex when properly conducted. It requires lubricant to be supplied at a constant 45 grams per minute at 80*F and run at 800 rpm with a specific leverage load to the bearing on the rubbing block. This varies by material and bearing type. The test runs for 10 minutes or until part fails by scoring.
At that point th test is repeated with new oil, new bearing ring and mandrel at progressively lighter loads until failure does not occur. There are a zillion charts made from this for various bearings, oils and conditions for properly characterizing EP lubricant ability which is all this test does.

It has nothing to do with washout, contamination, thermal breakdown etc. Its an EP additive test. Ray

You read way to far into my post. :lol: Ok...I agree that ASTM standards do not cover everything under the sun, but I never said that anyway. FYI - if you want an ASTM standard for a test that has none, you may join ASTM and write the standard yourself.

Using a test that has an ASTM standard (i.e. ASTM D2782-02(2008) Standard Test Method for Measurement of Extreme-Pressure Properties of Lubricating Fluids (Timken Method)) at a show for comparison purposes only (bastardizing in your terms) to people that probably do not understand the test or application of the results, is a sales gimmick (i.e. a "trick"). It is what it is. My original post was simply a statement of why the Schaeffer oil performed well at the show since I have seen how it is presented. I have never seen the Timken results presented on a datasheet for automobile oils (including Schaeffer's technical data sheets.).

If anyone is interested in Schaeffer oil, here is their website: www.schaefferoil.com

Well said...and I got your point. And...until a couple of years ago I was a member of ASTM. Great stuff....but not really worth too much in my end of the industry. Too many variables and variations. I know a handful of people from ASTM. Great hardworking people. Just coldn't sit still for the comment :D . Ray

Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:37 pm

I see that shaffer has a lot of products with moly, kinda like the liqui-moly oils.
Those types of moly additive are good for open chains, grease, assembly lube...........but for use in motor oil they are more........controversial

Sat Jan 12, 2013 9:16 am

modok wrote: I see that shaffer has a lot of products with moly, kinda like the liqui-moly oils.
Those types of moly additive are good for open chains, grease, assembly lube...........but for use in motor oil they are more........controversial

They are also controversial in transmissions. Moly is a fantastic lubricant. When it is sintered or bonded to another molecule as part of a molecular chain....sure fine.
But when its an additive.....like added by weight and then blended, getting particles fine enough to keep the moly from actually being an abrasive or settling out.....is very difficult. Graphite has the same issues.

Moly and graphite in transmissions make for an effective EP additive for gears....but gives difficulty because of the granularity in units with tight tolerances like the synchros. They also affect the film strength of the oil base. Ray

Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:33 pm

kinda like teflon in greessee can and will kill ball&roller bearings,mainly ball, but it's awassom on sliding stuff like splines&bushings

Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:58 pm

On a web-site called www.bobistheoilguy.com, this oil company is a sponsor there. If it interests you there is a section on virgin oil analysis (VOA), where folks can see what is actually in the oil.
Hope this helps, Bill.

Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:22 pm

Cptn. Calzone wrote: Saw some of this at a hot rod/vw event yesterday, the snake oil salespeople had a nifty bearing adjustable drag setup to demonstrate their claims. The base stock is synthetic and then claims of high zink along with teflon?! Just wanted to put it out there if anyone heard of this stuff. Sold for 7.00 qt similar in price to Penn or even Gibbs oil.

If it really has Teflon in it, I would not recommend it. Years ago I worked for a company called Militec-1 (google it) and we had a copy of a letter from Dupont, the manufacturer of Teflon expressing that they strongly advised against using any product with Teflon in an internal combustion engine as it would cause clogging of oil passages. Without saying so it was aimed at Slick 50. As I understood it, this was a slippery (sorry for the pun) problem for Dupont as Slick 50's parent company was a huge customer, but the product was not suited.

Wed Sep 24, 2014 9:52 pm

I am going to bring this thread back up because a lady I worked with had 2 boxes of Schaeffer motor oil she sold me for $20/pop- her husband had recently passed away, he was into racing and stock cars etc and had about 6 boxes of this stuff lying around. I figured well why not, sounded like good stuff. The weight I got was 15W-40. Don't know if that makes any difference. I will say that I was having engine compression issues a while back, and a guy and I took my top end apart and installed new pistons and cylinders, and then I used the Schaeffers for the first time to fill the case back up. About 3 months later I burned out cylinder #3, and pulled the engine again to discover my piston rings on #3 had MELTED into the piston- like it had gotten so hot it just fused with the piston basically. I have NO idea whether this motor oil had anything to do with it, wish someone could confirm or deny with absolution so i would know whether it's safe to keep using it. :?

Thu Sep 25, 2014 1:49 pm

The Other Dyno Don wrote: Cptn. Calzone wrote: Saw some of this at a hot rod/vw event yesterday, the snake oil salespeople had a nifty bearing adjustable drag setup to demonstrate their claims. The base stock is synthetic and then claims of high zink along with teflon?! Just wanted to put it out there if anyone heard of this stuff. Sold for 7.00 qt similar in price to Penn or even Gibbs oil.

If it really has Teflon in it, I would not recommend it. Years ago I worked for a company called Militec-1 (google it) and we had a copy of a letter from Dupont, the manufacturer of Teflon expressing that they strongly advised against using any product with Teflon in an internal combustion engine as it would cause clogging of oil passages. Without saying so it was aimed at Slick 50. As I understood it, this was a slippery (sorry for the pun) problem for Dupont as Slick 50's parent company was a huge customer, but the product was not suited.

Not all types of PTFE are equal or the same.

Fri Sep 26, 2014 8:33 pm

Quote: Credit where credit is due, the vast body of work that was done on VW and Porsche air cooled engine motor oil (R&D work) was also done by Charles Navarro and his wife at LN Engineering, Jake assisted in this effort.

Incorrect. I spearheaded all the efforts to develop the Snake Oil which is now JGR Driven DT50. Every bit of development for that oil was done here, under my roof and Charles and Tammy assisted me and Lake Speed of JGR.

Thats why MY name was the name on the bottle along with Joe Gibbs.

Today, we continue to develop these oils and I currently have several changes that will be made to the offerings in 2015.

Mon Jan 10, 2022 5:47 pm

Nice any news since 2015 ?

Tue Jan 11, 2022 4:57 am

Jake Raby wrote: Quote: Credit where credit is due, the vast body of work that was done on VW and Porsche air cooled engine motor oil (R&D work) was also done by Charles Navarro and his wife at LN Engineering, Jake assisted in this effort.

Incorrect. I spearheaded all the efforts to develop the Snake Oil which is now JGR Driven DT50. Every bit of development for that oil was done here, under my roof and Charles and Tammy assisted me and Lake Speed of JGR.

Thats why MY name was the name on the bottle along with Joe Gibbs.

Today, we continue to develop these oils and I currently have several changes that will be made to the offerings in 2015.

Notice how Mr. Raby distinguished his product from the generic term. Proper use of the English language allows us to know at once the difference between "snake oil" and "Snake Oil". Modern computers have gotten us into some bad habits.