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Sun May 05, 2013 2:46 pm

This is a long story as to why I am asking for this information, but it has to do with a faulty engine install by a mechanic.

We had motor mounts go bad from oil leaking on them. Does anyone know about how long it would take for the rubber on the mounts to go bad from the oil leak?

And, if they (the mounts) were bad when we had the engine installed (May '11, engine has approx. 23,000 miles on it now), should they have been replaced by the mechanic? We have had an oil leak from the day we had the engine installed, and the oil is leaking from the bell housing.

Any info, input would be greatly appreciated.

Sun May 05, 2013 10:06 pm

I've been around engines and their design for a long time and it would be a normal and safe assumption that rubber compounds chosen for an engine mount would be chosen from types that are oil and road chemical resistant. So, whomever informed you that the motor mounts were ruined by an oil leak is likely to be someone with their hand out for a check to replace them and it was a convenient ox to gore. Motor mounts are a known replacement item due to age and use. Not knowing more about the situation, that would be one take on it.

DougM

Mon May 06, 2013 12:50 am

Did you ask your rebuilder to fix the oil leak within any warranty period? I agree that the engine mounts naturally go bad over time, oil certain will not extend their life though. Unless you gave your mechanic carte blanche to make any and all repairs you shouldn't be surprised that anything got left undone, that is just the way it works.

Mon May 06, 2013 8:27 am

Mechanics should try to upsell things like that, especially with the engine already out. They either likely forgot or didn't care about the mounts. It possible they didn't notice them. It happens.

Mon May 06, 2013 9:01 am

It is highly unlikely in my opinion that oil leaking out the bell housing would have ruined the engine mounts at the other end of the engine.

That said, did the shop that installed the engine also rebuild the engine? All of the parts replaced should be on an invoice. Would it be wise to replace wear items while the engine was being swapped? Yes, but less so important on external parts, like mounts, exhaust etc.

Here is the lecture part. We don't live in a perfect world. These are old vehicles. When you noticed the leak, you should have given the shop a chance to stand behind their work. Most reputable shops stand behind their work. If all they did was the install of an engine provided by you or a rebuilder, responsibility gets a little more cloudy when it comes to who pays for what. Sorry for your luck.

Have the engine oil leak verified and fixed. Have the mounts replaced at the same time.

Mon May 06, 2013 2:45 pm

The engine mounts may have been on there way out but visually ok at the time and an oil leak MAY have accelerated their decay but how would you measure that? And at the time did you tell him they needed replacing but he ignored you? Did you tell him to replace everything that looked remotely worn or just to swap the engine on a budget (where he would hear: replace as little as possible). Did you start investigating this at the first sign of the leak or ignore it for 10k? That seems the only reasonable way an oil leak could affect the engine mounts. A litre spilled on an engine mount and cleaned off in a few days/weeks shouldn't affect the rubber at all. Make sure you're only going after him for the things HE did wrong...Maybe that is the engine...but unless he took a blowtorch to them the mounts are on you (or, obviously, if you paid for new mounts that were never installed).

Quote: Here is the lecture part. We don't live in a perfect world. These are old vehicles. When you noticed the leak, you should have given the shop a chance to stand behind their work. Most reputable shops stand behind their work. If all they did was the install of an engine provided by you or a rebuilder, responsibility gets a little more cloudy when it comes to who pays for what. Sorry for your luck.

Have the engine oil leak verified and fixed. Have the mounts replaced at the same time.

x2.

Mon May 06, 2013 3:08 pm

are you sure its engine oil and not transmission oil?

Tue May 07, 2013 8:42 am

More back story on my original post.

The engine is a GoWesty. We have pretty much had an oil leak problem from the day it was put in. We have repeatedly brought it back in to the shop (a reputable VW shop that I have used for 8 years when I had my tin top).

We have had in in there no less than 7 times regarding the issue. Last summer we drove up around the Olympic peninsula and went through a bunch of oil. My husband drove to Seattle in March and used 1.5 qts to get up there.
Yet, every time we took it to the reputable VW shop that installed it, we supposedly had it "repaired" or the last time they couldn't find a leak, even though we brought it home and overnight there was a oil puddle about the size of a cake plate under the van when we looked at it the next day.

We brought it to another VW place around here, they saw the leak, but told us to bring it to the other place since we had the engine put in by them originally and they knew the history of the van.

We are planning another long trip this summer through UT, AZ, NM and NV, so we want to make sure we have everything fixed on the van. New brakes, we had the gas tank sealed, and so we started pricing around. Here for all of the repairs, it was over $4k plus tax. My husband is from Portland, and needed to make a trip up there anyway, so we called up there to check on the price of the repairs we needed. $2k with no tax because its OR.

He drove the van up there last week, and had the guy go through it. This is a mechanic whom my husband used to take his bug to, and we also took our VW pick up there a couple of times. It's also a mechanic that I have seen suggested by a few people here on the forum so we have experience with them and obviously other people back them up.

We had the repairs done, and the mechanic actually didn't repair a couple things that we thought needed done, but it turns out we didn't. So, in that respect the guy is honest too, so not looking to make an extra buck as some have suggested.

He saw the leak, asked my husband about it, and started taking a look. He steam cleaned the engine and had the van for 2 days making repairs and investigating the leak. We now have a BOX of parts that were either installed the wrong way, or just the complete wrong part installed by the original mechanic. The 2 engine mounts were covered in oil, he says they were eaten away by the oil, he also took photos of everything that was wrong with the install and the wrong parts before he replaced them, and determined the leak was coming from the bell housing.
He gave my husband his number, the box of parts, and the photos and said if we need to go to court because the original mechanic won't help us out for their mistakes he will gladly back us up in court. My husband never asked him to do that, but the mechanic said that all the problems we have been having besides the oil leak with the engine are from the wrong parts. Obviously.

So, we have had the van back since last Friday, and it runs like a new car.
As much as at this point we don't want the original mechanic even touching the van, my husband went down there yesterday with the box of parts, photos, and all of our history of repairs with them.he said in case we DO needed to go to court, he wanted to give them the option of making it right.
So, the van is there, they were speechless as to the parts that came out of the van, and I have a feeling the mechanic who installed the engine is going to be looking for a new job.

After all that, the Portland mechanic got us out of there for less than the quoted price.

Let me know your opinions now that you have read the story, and I'll keep you all updated.

Tue May 07, 2013 8:57 am

Update:

My husband just called. There's an oil leak at the bell housing! Problem with the flywheel.

They're pulling the engine today.

Tue May 07, 2013 8:58 am

If the van is fixed, I'd be inclined to move on. 6 months from now it will be a memory. The engine came from a notable supplier, but I am not sure they are actually assembled in house. The engine was shipped and installed by another shop. The question becomes did the supplier ship a defective engine, or did the installer mess something up? I believe the GW engines come with the flywheel installed to avoid seal and end play problems.

It sucks, but chalk it up to lesson learned. At least it did not catch fire or have the brakes fail going down a mountain. In other words, no one got hurt. I have been in automotive most of my life. There are alot of hacks out there, but more common are technicians with proper skills, experience and care about their work. The hacks float from shop to shop. Unfortunately, it takes some screw ups or come backs for the owner to identify one.

Tue May 07, 2013 9:11 am

Mumoautumn wrote: Update:

My husband just called. There's an oil leak at the bell housing! Problem with the flywheel.

They're pulling the engine today.

So it could be the main seal, the o-ring at the flywheel or one of the galleys leaking. It should be covered under the Gowesty warranty.

Shouldn't they pull the transmission instead ?

Tue May 07, 2013 6:12 pm

i still said before, are you sure its engine oil and not transmission oil? it could be that the oil slinger tore up the input shaft seal. thats what happened to mine. and it came from the bellhousing.

Tue May 07, 2013 7:37 pm

Mumoautumn wrote: Last summer we drove up around the Olympic peninsula and went through a bunch of oil. My husband drove to Seattle in March and used 1.5 qts to get up there.

Sounds like its oil loss in this case NavyVW.

Repairs and new parts are only as good as the mechanic. Sounds like you are on the right track now Mumoautumn. Good luck.

Thu May 09, 2013 1:17 pm

Newest update...

It was the main seal. Fortunately, It has been replaced. Unfortunately the GoWesty warranty is only covering a small portion of it.

My husband is driving the van today and noting any leaks, then we are going to take it on a small road trip (either Sonoma coast, or Santa Cruz) this weekend, Then we have to bring it back to the shop on Monday morning for them to take a look at it again, since it normally starts leaking worse after a long trip rather than around town.

Sat May 11, 2013 11:41 am

Mumoautumn wrote: Newest update...

It was the main seal. Fortunately, It has been replaced. Unfortunately the GoWesty warranty is only covering a small portion of it.

My husband is driving the van today and noting any leaks, then we are going to take it on a small road trip (either Sonoma coast, or Santa Cruz) this weekend, Then we have to bring it back to the shop on Monday morning for them to take a look at it again, since it normally starts leaking worse after a long trip rather than around town.

Whow! GoWesty, the company that has a big write-up on their website on how their special main seals dont leak wont pay 100% for the damage that their leaking seal caused!!!

what a rip off crock of crap. Pay big money for the GoWesty special and it falls flat on its face and GoWesty wont back you up.

I guess the Gowesty warranty is not all that good.

And YES. leaks of engine oil will attack rubber motor mounts. It is a very common cause of early rubber mount failure.

I'd sue GoWsety for all damages caused by the oil leak, specially in light of their claims to use the best oil seal on their engines.

Sat May 11, 2013 12:16 pm

I am not a fan of GW, preferring Van Cafe - a point relevant to my feelings on this because I don't think GW should be at fault at all here.

It is well known that when installing an engine, the seals can easily be damaged with improper installation procedure. (shaft not lined up, but frustrated banging to insert it, engine accidentally bangs into trans while getting things in position, failure to put some lube in for the insertion, etc, etc, etc) What do we know? Why, we know the person that installed the engine did a job so substandard that another mechanic volunteered to help in court, and documented all the mistakes and improper parts he found to help with that possible outcome. So, the guy installing the engine was a complete incompetent, but there is STILL feeling that GW is responsible? I say absolutely not.

The far higher probability is that the installing mechanic beat the crap out of the seal inside the bellhousing while trying to mate the engine and transmission. By far.

DougM

Sat May 11, 2013 3:51 pm

Just this week I removed a waterboxer carrier with two of the four motor mounts were in need of replacement as they delaminated and the rubber was somewhat melted looking.
Not heat melted, chemical melted.
The main seal, dip stick tube o ring and breather tower o ring were all leaking oil.
The rear hatch of the van had the telltail oil spots covered with dirt.

The mounts were replaced less than 5000 miles ago.

Sat May 11, 2013 6:13 pm

IdahoDoug wrote: I am not a fan of GW, preferring Van Cafe - a point relevant to my feelings on this because I don't think GW should be at fault at all here.

It is well known that when installing an engine, the seals can easily be damaged with improper installation procedure. (shaft not lined up, but frustrated banging to insert it, engine accidentally bangs into trans while getting things in position, failure to put some lube in for the insertion, etc, etc, etc) What do we know? Why, we know the person that installed the engine did a job so substandard that another mechanic volunteered to help in court, and documented all the mistakes and improper parts he found to help with that possible outcome. So, the guy installing the engine was a complete incompetent, but there is STILL feeling that GW is responsible? I say absolutely not.

The far higher probability is that the installing mechanic beat the crap out of the seal inside the bellhousing while trying to mate the engine and transmission. By far.

DougM

Seeing that it is posted that the flywheel comes attached when the motor is purchased, i dont see how the seal could be damaged during engine install. unless the flywheel was hit so hard as to cause some thing to be bent. I believe that any damage to the oil seal caused by a flywheel getting wacked during install or shipping of the motor would most certainly cause other noticable damage such as excessive engine vibration. I read no evidence of that.

If the flywheel and seal was not installed by GoWesty, it is highly unlikely they are to blame for the seals failure, unless they supplied a defective seal or flywheel.

Note that the owner of the van stated was it was the seal, that was it. I see no indication by owner that it was the mechanic that caused the damage to the seal, nor do i believe he could under these circumstancs (ie no other damage reported to support theory that flywheel was wacked hard enough to fail the seal.)

Gowesty is paying for part, but not for all the damage from the leak. This suggests some guilt in the seals failure. But maybe GoWesty is not guilty but are instead being very nice, offering to pay for something when really they owe nothing. In that case I stand corrected in any condemnation of the lack of full coverage of the cost to repair the leak.

Sat May 11, 2013 11:10 pm

Hmm, I'm assuming that the engine comes dressed (long block), but things like the clutch and flywheel are transferred from the old engine to the new Go Westy engine. Not true? Obviously, that would change things if the engine comes fully dressed with a new clutch and flywheel, etc already on it.

DougM

Sat May 11, 2013 11:37 pm

Quote: • Machined flywheel or flex plate installed and crankshaft endplay properly set
This is one of the things listed on their engine ads.