TheSamba.com :: View topic - Static Timing with Pertronix or compufire ignitions

Tue Nov 26, 2013 4:43 pm

I have finally found a new way to adjust the timing on my VW stock 1972 type 1 engine with compufire points. I have a Bocar 34 pict 3 and SVDA from Aircooled.net. From what I gathered from all suggestions off the web and various forums is that the preferred method for the best timing is static with the engine cold. I also read that you can't perform static timing with electronic points. i.e. pertronix, compufire. Enter the strobe light and the basic static timing procedure and you now have a way too really make a big difference in performance. It is true that static timing cannot be performed on pertronix or compufire ignitions with a light probe or meter. Enter the timing strobe light to be used for static timing. Just hook up your timing light when the engine is cold and rotate the engine with the ignition on and hold the trigger down on your timing strobe. Note this will work just as well on engines with points. As your 7.5 degrees BTDC arrives the strobe light will flash. Turn the engine to 7.5 degrees BTDC and then rotate the distributor clockwise than counter clockwise. Now while holding the trigger on your strobe turn the distributor counter clockwise until the strobe light flashes. Once you have it correct, check it by turning the engine back and forth and slowly turn engine clockwise to make sure the strobe lights (just a blip) at 7.5 BTDC. Lock down your distributor and she will purr like a kitten. You would be surprised to find where the timing light shows your timing is at 3000 rpm. You will be surprised. For me static timing all the way and the engine will purr through out the rpm range. You will be amazed!

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1141128.jpg

Tue Nov 26, 2013 5:26 pm

Actually you can use static timing (test) light with electronic modules .. Connect one side of test light to #1 terminal of coil... Connect other side of test light to ground ...Put crank pulley at 7.5° BTDC and turn key on, and rotate dist till test lamp lights..... JUST LIKE POINTS..... This will get you "start up" every time you set new engine...

In essence it is what you are doing with your STROBE method....

Been doing it that way for years...... BUT usually set engine at 28-30° BTDC at 3000 RPM for final tune....

Dale

Tue Nov 26, 2013 6:29 pm

I follow your light stick sort of and timing has been done many ways and it's all what one feels comfortable with, however Points -regarding spark and points position - The spark happens when the points open -- the magnetic field in the primary of the coil collapses and sends a surge through the secondary to the plugs. Theoretically you COULD get a spark from the points connecting, but the magnetic field builds up more slowly than when it collapses as the points open, so that's when you get the best spark and for that reason static timing with a test light is far and between from the best method with electronic ignitions. It has to do with the other factors mentioned above beside the sending of the signal to the coil and then the plugs. The strobe will give you the most accurate timing with electronic ignition's for static timing. In my book you throw the light probe in the trash or use it to check fuses and static time the electronic ignition when the coil sends the spark to the plug. then leave it alone and do not go on to fine tune with the timing light after warm up. This is a mechanical beast we are dealing with that has too many tolerances beyond the time when the coil energizes

Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:10 pm

Lets see electron flow is almost at the speed of light... I wonder if the few hundred thousands of a second in time it take in the processing of your theory vs mine is really going to make any real difference in how engine runs....

IF you want accuracy, dump the distributor (no matter how good you think it is for mechanical accuracy) and go crank trigger and coil on plug (COP) ..... There is where you will see accuracy and improvement....

Dale

Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:33 pm

You are right on Mr Electron. Just like the .006 valve clearance and the speed distance the gap has to travel to open and close valves. I just joined the Samba and already find myself dealing with idiots who have done something one way all their lives only to realize that electrons flow at the speed of light. There ain't any plutonium in your coil or light stick

Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:35 pm

Tizio wrote: You are right on Mr Electron. Just like the .006 valve clearance and the speed distance the gap has to travel to open and close valves. I just joined the Samba and already find myself dealing with idiots who have done something one way all their lives only to realize that electrons flow at the speed of light. There ain't any plutonium in your coil or light stick Nice way to make friends... :roll:

Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:42 pm

cain't we all just get along. "CAIN"T redneck for Can't

Good point Glenn

You might want to back off just a taste. We are all here to help each other. None of us are perfect. Dale M has helped me several times and I expect he is only trying to help you as well. There are plenty here that will chime in with nothing to say. You'll have to hang around long enough to know who is someone that can help you and someone that just likes to hear themselves talk. And there are plenty of those.

Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:47 pm

Thanks Glen for reminding me to be respectful and not hack away at people on this forum. I would like Mr. Rabbit to forgive me for being arrogant. My feeling is if you time warmed up with a strobe why waste the time on static. You believe in one way or another and like I said it is a matter of what you feel comfortable with

Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:51 pm

I never static time and only use a timing light.

Total advance is more important then the advance at idle. If you don't know exactly how much advance your distributor has it can have too much and run hot. The engine will wear faster and it can hurt performance. If you have too little then you're not getting the best performance the engine is capable of.

Don't assume the specs provided by the manufacturer are correct, for aftermarket distributor, they rarely are.

Also Dale is correct, if you want the most accurate, go crank fire.

Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:07 pm

I have a VW Trike that is much lighter than beetles or Baja sand rails. 740 lbs. with me onboard. I have jacked around with the timing using the 3000 rpm 28 to 32 and I found loss of throttle response at lower rpm's. I have better torque and throttle response at all rpm's using the method I finally turned to. I haven't looked at the timing at 3000 because it just runs so much better. And by the way I do have a stock bosch SVDA custom tuned by Aircooled.net with compufire electronics and the Super stock bocar 34 pict 3

Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:10 pm

If that works for you, that's all that matters.

Also the AC.net SVDA is hand calibrated so you know the specs are correct.

The vacuum advance also helps with additional advance at the top end. Factors like altitude and jetting also come into play.

Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:33 pm

Yes Glenn the hand tuned SVDA from Aircooled.net. This is my second trike build. My first I built in 1975. It was a 69 single port. I remember cruising in Colorado only to start loosing power at higher elevations. I went to the parts store and they got me an adjustable fuel jet for my stock solex and I was able to tune it in and made it to pikes peak in a snap. Nowadays they don't even sell the jet and It wouldn't work because I have dual port and was wondering how it would do in higher elevations and what I would encounter with my new Trike

Tue Nov 26, 2013 10:53 pm

:-({|= I do play a violin...learned how 75 yrs ago.

With this New electrical wizard and his way of timing an engine guess I will have to throw all my Snap On timing lights into the trash.

I guess they are all obsolete and to think I depended on them at my shop for over 28 yrs and still use them today. Wonders never cease to amaze me.

Wed Nov 27, 2013 9:15 am

IF you are building anew engine and starting it for first time, static timing will ensure ignition is correct (at least for initial start)and if engine does not start, at least you will know its not a timing problem.... What final advance curve and setting you decide that works for you depend on many factors.... My experiences come from driving a 1260 pound autocross car sporting over 120hp at the wheels (on chassis dyno), and engine has to work from 1000 RPM all the way to 7000RPM and on tight courses, you put it in second and do not have time to shift.....

And thanks for the compliment, I have dealt with electronics and relays and magnetism and transistor theory almost all my life....

And just keep in mind, what works for you may not be ultimate answer for the rest of us.... All I am try to do is present simple solutions that will work for the average Joe...

Dale

Wed Nov 27, 2013 12:27 pm

Quote: From what I gathered from all suggestions off the web and various forums is that the preferred method for the best timing is static with the engine cold.

I don't think you read that here. Did you not get a set of instructions with your SVDA? John goes through a very nice and detailed procedure on proper timing. In a nutshell, the timing is set full mechanical to between 28 and 32 with vac disconnected.

The only car I time static (and thats until I actually start working on it) is a stock 70 bug with a vac only distributor.

Wed Nov 27, 2013 3:18 pm

I am sorry for being an asgssasso. You guys are dealing with much heavier bodies and chassis. A vw Trike with scavenger exhaust behaves much differently than beetles and sand rails. After I purchased the Limited edition Bocar Super Stock 34 Pict 3 ...... I can't keepn the front wheel on the ground. ... I went to the Harley Dealer here in Annapolis, MD too shop for Trunks for my VW Franken Trike. That's what they put on all of my receipts at The Annapolis, MD Harley dealer. I installed the DayMaker LED HID Projecti0n Head Lamp on my VW Trike. I can help you with wiring on your VW Rig.... with pictures. I have self canceling turn signals (adjustable) and Auto delay engine start HID Head Lamps all Marstro Srativarious wired into my Stock Harley Davidson controls. 2013 VW Trike. If you want pictures of my wiring I will send them to everyone interested

Wed Nov 27, 2013 4:27 pm

Tizio wrote: I am sorry for being an asgssasso. You guys are dealing with much heavier bodies and chassis. A vw Trike with scavenger exhaust behaves much differently than beetles and sand rails. After I purchased the Limited edition Bocar Super Stock 34 Pict 3 ...... I can't keepn the front wheel on the ground. ... I went to the Harley Dealer here in Annapolis, MD too shop for Trunks for my VW Franken Trike. That's what they put on all of my receipts at The Annapolis, MD Harley dealer. I installed the DayMaker LED HID Projecti0n Head Lamp on my VW Trike. I can help you with wiring on your VW Rig.... with pictures. I have self canceling turn signals (adjustable) and Auto delay engine start HID Head Lamps all Marstro Srativarious wired into my Stock Harley Davidson controls. 2013 VW Trike. If you want pictures of my wiring I will send them to everyone interested

If you can not keep front wheels on ground you chassis (frame) is to short, you need to move your weight and weigh of frame further forward.... You issue is counterbalance not excessive horse power.... But the way 1300lb buggy with 120 to 140hp will also lift wheels.... Ever been to a VW series drag race....

Ideally your power plant and chassis should be mid engine for maximum efficiency and stability, unfortunate you chassis and body precludes this.... You issues with raising front wheels relies on the driver.... Not the power plant....

Nice of you to offer wiring help for those who need it.... You can probably add it here...

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=344781

Dale

Fri Nov 29, 2013 5:53 pm

Happy Thanksgiving
I had some help this Thanksgiving and was able to have a short movie wmv shot on my iPhone 5s. Tizio's VW Trike Stock 1600cc..... Slow motion Wheelies.... The short movie clip is what happened with static timing dead cold using a strobe light instead of the light stick @ 7.5 degrees BTCD. The outdoor Temp was 37 degrees and my engine was slightly warmed up. I had parked it for 2 hours to enjoy a thanksgiving. A quick start and proceeded with no warm up and would consider the engine cool... I did in fact check timing with a strobe today after my test yesterday to see what it was. I read 5 degrees BTDC at 850 rpm and 27.5 BTDC at 3500 rpm with vacuum hose unplugged. I need to do more testing but it seems if I use my instructions 28-30 at 3500 rpm I have to do extra revving to bring the front wheel up and she sputters climbing up my ramps into my garage. No problem and much throttle response using the dead cold 7.5 degrees static timing. This link is the wheelies I performed and I posted them on my copier business web page. I have added the windows media movie at this link
http://copytron.cnchost.com/html/about_us_.html

Fri Nov 29, 2013 6:27 pm

An easy method I use is to use a timing light to time to 28-30 degrees. I then shut of the car and find what it is timed at static...subtract the two figures. I now write that figure on the distributor somewhere. From that point on I just static time it, knowing how much timing the distributor "has in it".

Sun Dec 01, 2013 1:41 am

i think i have been down this road before with a few smart ass remarks, look static time if you want to get a ballpark idea so you can start your engine, other then that is worthless, next use a timing light to get the advance reading to test mechanical/total....Now my favorite and the most beneficial to the performance of your engine is on a dyno under a load slowly advance your distributor until starts to ping then slowly back it up until stops...then after you can get your timing light get a reading under the same load/rpm for reference...lets say you have a total of 38 with vacuum hose on then you know what your optimum timing is and if need to you can always back it off a few degrees depending on you load of your vehicle lets say you have 5 people in the car and going on a cruise or use next lower grade gas but you can always bring it back up to 38 again.

Don't be afraid to spend a little money on dyno time to finalize your set up on your vehicle, is well worth it.