TheSamba.com :: View topic - Rust Proofing

Tue Sep 09, 2014 2:13 pm

Good work Dennis in getting the sanders fett :)

I'm really interested in how the stuff acts after application, how solid it is etc.

Cheers

Alistair

Tue Sep 09, 2014 2:43 pm

I,m all for rust prevention and rust remediation efforts but I know that I think strangely.

I was in the new car business back in the 70's & 80's, i saw a lot of product sold, I watched a lot put on.

It was all gold in the dealership owners pockets. It was sprayed in a time is money fashion. The coverage was often uneven, attention to detail was poor and the poor kid doing the horrible task? He'd much rather being doing something ANYTHING else at all!

Ok, if this dealer applied stuff worked, which I'm sure it did for awhile, yearly maintenance was required....... And honestly? Who ever did that? A few old, foggies who had time to kill but over all? No one. No inspections....... Warranty is void! :wink:

Anyway....... Once the car left the lot, it drove through puddles, tar, gravel, snow, salt, etc.

Now, with the dirty frame and sheet metal, without an absolute pristine under chassis cleaning....... There ain't nothing that's going to stick to it now! At least not for long!

Once you've got a used unit........ And we all do....... Instead of gooping over the rust potential areas, simply look at them.

Yes, crawl under once a year, probably early Fall. Have sand paper, a wire brush and a can of Rustoleum Rusty Metal Primer, it's about the best out there for a reasonable price" and touch up the spots you see. Some spots are harder to see, behind the headlights, above the transmission, etc but if you care..... You'll look.

Spraying copious quantities of expensive Goo on now is simply an act of Folly in my book. Throwing good money away if you will. Plus you cover up any rust so you cannot and will not see it until it lies hidden under the goo until is so huge and problematic that you a speechless! (Can you say VW Factory Seam Sealer?)

This is my opinion only. I shy away from undercoating, I probably saw and experienced too much of a shyster industry back years ago so I am jaded.....

Do as you wish as will I.

Now products like Fluid Film or Real Fish Oil? Very real protection is given albeit temporary at best.

Dave

Tue Sep 09, 2014 2:45 pm

I have a large tub of that grease.
It is solid at room temp, doesn't spray like I hoped and other products covered much better.

A 1/2"-3/4" orifice and pickup for the spray tool is the absolute minimum size possible for it.
I ended up warming it to apply, as I do must most of the heavy waxes and underbody products.

My pressure pot has a 1.25" pickup and 1" spray nozzle.
When warm it went beautifully, as the pot cooled, clumpier and clumpier.
Not such a great finish and many areas were not covered as well.
When I talked to the distributor, he said, it's a grease, just wipe the clumpy areas with a rags soak in the grease.
Not what I wanted to hear.

When you go to clean up the stuff, you will see it is legit and will repel water well.
I personally do not like the application of it, finish there after and it was difficult to get it all out of my spray tools.

Again, other products do not have these issues and perform as well or better than this grease.

Still, I look forward to seeing someone else take a stab at it.

Tue Sep 09, 2014 2:46 pm

I'll be treating my van (garage stored) which ironically is not a good test vehicle. Will also do my A3 and wife's CRV..both which see lots of winter/salt/nastiness here. For sure, the Sander's grease is quite under-represented in the English world.

My thinking (if there is interest) is to design a test rig that would be carried on a few cars via the trailer hitch. Basically steel box channel, open at both ends that would endure the typical road/snow/salt/rain/wash regimen.

Krown, Rust Check, Waxoyl, Noxudol, Dinitrol, Sanders Grease, Fluid film for now at least would be my test pics.

Tue Sep 09, 2014 3:01 pm

Phishman068 wrote: I assume any waxing needs to be addressed at least every 5 years.

The vehicle owners paying me to spray cavities and the underside of their vehicles come by twice a year for a pre winter protection spray and a post winter clean, neutralize and respray.

The first treatment takes the longest, the rest are touchups and heavily worn areas.
All get to see the vehicle from the underside each time.
Not much rust going on with two sprays a year.

The average second spray is around $175 for time and materials.
The initial spray, much much more if everything needs to be masked off (new car) or the initial spray of a Vanagon usually includes a bit of bodywork and paint, so much more than $175.

Tue Sep 09, 2014 3:07 pm

denwood wrote: Krown, Rust Check, Waxoyl, Noxudol, Dinitrol, Sanders Grease, Fluid film for now at least would be my test pics.

All listed will need yearly respray if you want them to work in the place of a autobody rustproofing spray like Noxudol or Wurth...my opinion from years of testing.

Fine for DIYers doing the work, but will be costly for those who will be paying for the services...and if they want parts masked off from spraying...the higher the price for added labor at each spray interval.

Tue Sep 09, 2014 3:27 pm

DJ, surface applied rust treatments (CPC) got a really bad name as companies like Ziebart damaged vehicles in the past. There is serious research going on in the field (particularly by military) and quite frankly a winter driven vehicle in our environment here will rust out very quickly if not treated. One drive down a gravel road likely introduces hundreds of small pits/holes in a painted chassis...so a self healing, hydrophobic coating is the only way to deal with this. On our roads, anything more than 10 years old that is not rusted out (or well on its way) has almost certainly been treated repeatedly with CPCs.

Dylan, I was wondering when you would chime in :-) Your multi-product, location specific application of various products tells me you have experience with corrosion in older vehicles.

The Mike Sander's "grease" needs to be heated to 120C for application, and to a warm vehicle...so is likely the hardest possible product to apply. It ranked 5th in the classic monthly tests, but I'm pretty sure based on that description that they did not apply it hot enough. It was also applied much too thick.

Interesting that you mention Noxudol, as it:

1. Won the classic car three year test.
2. Was used by both Toyota and Isuzu in safety recalls involving premature frame rust: http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/cs/jaxrs/download/doc/UCM449097/RCMN-13V547-6448.pdf

and can be applied without heat.

My issue with KROWN and Rust Check here is that they don't last even 1 season on the undercarriage. Your customers visiting twice yearly are definitely staying ahead of the game.

Tue Sep 09, 2014 3:50 pm

I have been a Noxudol installer and reseller for 4 years now.
Great stuff, some water soluble and others economy friendly pine tar based.
I sell more Wurth products but apply about the same amounts of each vendor.

I am working with 5 local dealerships now and have been spraying the higher end vehicles for them on a regular basis.

The only negative I can say about Noxudol products is that they do not completely dry.
Ask Burley, HaHa, long sleeve work shirts are all must even months after applying them.

Tue Sep 09, 2014 4:41 pm

nmerrill wrote: I sprayed the entire under body etc. of my westy with waxoyl (the black Hardwax underbody product) at least 6 years ago.

It performed really well for the most part. I drove the van one winter, shortly after coating, as a ski rig, and did see the beginnings of rust after that - primarily at sharp edges of flanges, seams etc. Places that tend to rust first with most coatings. This was applied over rust free areas (Van was a west coast baby).

IMO, the clear original Waxoyl seems to work better than the black stuff in the "professional only" can. Not sure if they were forced to change the formula for the US (EPA) market.

Try to get the UK imported stuff.
Moss motors sells the UK stuff. Rovers North sells the "professional only"

Wed Sep 10, 2014 2:04 am

denwood wrote:

The Mike Sander's "grease" needs to be heated to 120C for application, and to a warm vehicle...so is likely the hardest possible product to apply. It ranked 5th in the classic monthly tests, but I'm pretty sure based on that description that they did not apply it hot enough. It was also applied much too thick.

The Mike Sanders products have keine lösungsmittel. Or no solvents or such additives. Good for the environment. Harder to apply. Fairly logical. Havent tried it myself but norwegian owners of rust-prone classics (as seen in the video) swear by it. Unless they own US classics, then they seems to go with US products. Very trend based :D

I'm learning lots here. Thanks.

Wed Sep 10, 2014 6:00 am

Dinitrol is the brand used by the commercial aviation industry to treat metal structure for corrosion prevention. Keel beam structure in aircraft is sprayed with this material and is likely never reinspected until the aircraft is in for heavy maintenance some 15-20 years later. Granted, this is all aluminum structure but fighting corrosion in Al is the same as fighting it in steel; prevent moisture from connecting metals, dissimilar and otherwise.

My experience being around Dinitrol was that it was very similar to Waxoyl. Brown/gold in color. I was guessing it was some kind of paraffin dissolved in kerosene.

Wed Sep 10, 2014 6:20 am

I took a look last night and realized my sense of time is dubious....
I sprayed the Van in 2005.
A little more details are in order.
It's seen about 50K miles since then - no daily driving ever. Only drove it in VT winters for 2 seasons.
I have been really over worked, and never got a chance to re-apply the Waxoyl on a regular basis like I always intended!
Still it has held up rather well, but again, limited winter driving.
Some more pics:

Here you can see what gravel did to the coating....

Wed Sep 10, 2014 7:25 am

Dylan, Noxudol staying pliable is a good sign. I know it's a PITA to work on vehicles that have been treated, but it's sure nice when disassembling where rust has been kept at bay.

TJ, it does look like the tests have used a softer Waxoyl product, not the black one.

Taiga, I'd agree this thread is exactly what I hoped it would be..factual with real world pics/experience like nmerril has posted :-)

Special, I noted in my first post that Dinitrol is used here by Bombardier in their new street cars (for Toronto). They have several products and use them differently depending on application. Dinitrol has clearly focused on aviation/rail ... my guess are the margins are rather excellent in that field :-) Airplane superstructure never sees salt washes, although moisture cycles/galvanic corrosion must be targeted. I would love to know what companies like Bombardier actually do for research/testing.

Nm, 9 years with a few winters is a pretty good record for one treatment with the Waxoyl Pro product. Thanks again for posting up these excellent pics. If I had to guess, there is not a lot of self healing going on, but again, 9 years from application! The gravel hits pretty much highlight the need for an annual (ish) inspection. I am under the van a few times a year (this year a fair bit as I dropped the tank, new fuel lines, pump, filter) and of course had the cavity gun going strong. Unless you personally inspect/request, assume any typical rust shop will likely completely ignore/miss above the spare tire (remove it first!) as well as over the fuel tank. In my own shop, I'd be loosening the two tank mount bolts to drop it slightly for re-application to ensure the tank seams/frame rails were properly covered.

To confuse the issue, Bilt Hamber themselves solicited this ASTM B117-03 salt spray test: http://www.bilthamber.com/media/downloads/32/PG-BH13-001.pdf

Look on page 23: Mike Sanders grease, Waxoyl, Dinitrol and Noxudol have failed, and Bilt Hamber Dynax S50 ranks first. I see a major problem with this study though in that the back side of the test plates were not coated or primed. In this case, every other product tested failed miserably (including Waxoyl, Dinitrol and Noxudol), in direct contrast to the Classic Monthly and German "box channel" tests. The classic car tests ranked Bilt Hamber Dynax S50 4th behind Noxudol and Waxoyl. In the Bilt Hamber test, perhaps the conclusion might be that Dynax S50 performs very well where corrosion creep is occurring. Their pdf claims that it can "arrest" existing rust : http://www.bilthamber.com/media/downloads/10/dynax_s50_tec.pdf Regardless, the results between the ASTM salt test and classic car tests contradict each other.

So a long term real world test might include:

Bilt Hamber Dynax S50 (won their own salt spray tests)
Mike Sanders Grease (won long term German test)
Waxoyl (popular, 2nd in Classic Monthly test)
Dinitrol (has industry credentials, not sure which variation)
Rust Check (most popular here)
Corrosion 3000 (tested top in Canadian Military CLIMAT)
Krown (most popular locally)
Fluid Film (popular anecdotally)

Wed Sep 10, 2014 9:09 am

The stuff the aerospace guys use as Dinotrol (which I'm finding is not in use anymore) is now superseded by Cor-Ban or Ardrox. The thickest stuff used is either Ardrox AV15 or Cor-Ban 35. I'd think either one of these would be best for under a car.

http://www.zipchem.com/products/product_detail.aspx?id=Njk=

There are other types, like Cor-Ban 23, that are thinner that might weep better but be less durable. The thicker stuff is what's used in the areas that are typically only accessed a couple times in the life of an aircraft. The thinner stuff goes in more frequently accessed spaces like a wheel well or underneath a lavatory.

MIL-PRF-85054 gives the test requirements for conformance of this material. Part of that testing requires verification that material promotes displacement of salt water, weeping into cracks, flexibility, durability, and verification on coupons that corrosion is abated.

Wed Sep 10, 2014 9:58 am

A quick look at some of the specs would suggest that LPS, Dinitrol and Cor-Ban show up repeatedly in the approved category for several aircraft.

To pass the spec: MIL-PRF-85054 has got to be some challenge for sure: http://chemsol.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/MIL-DTL-85054.pdf

Among a surprising array of tests (including low temp flaking, wetness after cure, very high temp flow, salt walter displacement etc.), the treatment must demonstrate zero corrosion after 28 days using the ASTM B117 on 2024 aluminum. The ASTM salt chamber test can be found here: https://law.resource.org/pub/us/cfr/ibr/003/astm.b117.1973.pdf

Thanks for the information Spec. It's obvious that any company attempting to achieve aviation certification has to invest a lot of money to get their products approved for use. As far as I know, of my proposed lists, only Dinitrol has passed a few of the specs. It's also not performed the best in the auto tests though. Food for thought.

Wed Sep 10, 2014 10:29 am

My guess (hard film, clear coat to allow inspection as per the spec, fast drying) might suggest Cor-ban on a car underbody would not do so well as far as self-healing goes. Pretty sure no airplane spec would include gravel bombardment...ha.

Rather dated now (2003): http://www.aviationtoday.com/am/categories/mainten...BCJTGMXPzE

Quote: High-Penetration CICs and CPCs

The major problem most technicians face when battling corrosion is that you usually can’t see the areas that it’s attacking until it has done its damage. That’s why highly penetrating products are important. "The star of our show right now is our Cor-Ban 35," explained Jason Smith, R&D laboratory manager for Zip-Chem Products. "It was chosen by Boeing based on its corrosion protection and great penetration properties. In fact, it was named after the Boeing specification BMA 3-35." The company states that along with Boeing, Cor-Ban 35 is also approved by Airbus, Sikorsky, other OEMs, and the U.S. military.

Smith explained that Cor-Ban 35’s wicking properties allow it to quickly and effectively migrate into tiny spaces between metal panels such as lap joints, beams, or struts. The product wicks in and pushes offending moisture out, effectively stopping corrosion.

"Applied properly, it will last for several years under normal situations," Smith said. "But it is a temporary protective coating so in some applications it will need periodic maintenance —touching-up in corrosive areas like wheel wells, under lavatories, or in areas that are subject to the application of various cleaners." The hard surface, high-solids film is clear to allow visual inspection of the base metal.

Wed Sep 10, 2014 11:48 am

denwood wrote:
TJ, it does look like the tests have used a softer Waxoyl product, not the black one.

Not sure, but I think Waxoyl has a body panel wax for interior panels/frame spaces, and the hardwax undercoating.
I suspect that the clear version is the panel wax, and the same as what VW sprayed in many places, and is a more liquid material when set up.

Also, when speaking of Fluid Film, we might want to acknowledge that they have more than one product - specifically the versions that are apparently designed for large ship ballast tanks where salt water exposure is regular!
Not sure if those products are applicable to Autos though.

Wed Sep 10, 2014 11:59 am

this entire thread is a good argument for a carbon fiber unit body

Wed Sep 10, 2014 7:30 pm

For sure..just a bit out of my price range :-) The Mike Harmer "grease" was shipped this morning, so should have a few pics etc. The whole issue of keeping it at 120C may be a challenge. I'm thinking of sourcing a high output heat tape/controller solution like this one to wrap the cavity gun pressure canister with:

Thu Sep 11, 2014 9:34 am

We've seen mention in this thread several times of Noxudol 700. This cavity wax "won" the Classic Monthly 3 year test, and is mentioned in safety recalls issued by both Toyota (frame rust recall) and Isuzu (rear suspension sub-frame recall) to treat structural failure issues due to rust. Dylan (insyncro) here uses it.
A bit of research on the product yields this: http://www.google.com/patents/WO2011120646A1?cl=en
Quote: According to one embodiment, a composition containing sulfonic acids, petroleum, overbased calcium salts in an amount of 10 to 30% by weight; fatty acids, tall-oil, polymers with isophthalic acid, pentaerythritol and tall-oil in an amount of 10 to 20% by weight; paraffin waxes and hydrocarbon waxes in an amount of less than 10%; base oil, distillates (petroleum), solvent- refined heavy paraffinic materials in an amount of 40 to 60% by weight, each percentage being based on the total weight of the wax component, may be used. This material is available as the commercial product Noxudol 700 from Auson AB, Kungsbacka, Sweden. This material is of waxy appearance and includes a liquid paraffin component.

A bit more research:

Sulphonic acids - rust cleaner
overbased calcium salts - oil additive to prevent rust
pentaerythritol - referenced in several corrosion inhibition papers.
polymers with isophthalic acid - referenced in corrosion resistance material
tall oils - used as a base for corrosion inhibitor products

It would appear that along with solvated paraffin wax, there are actually a few active ingredients that react with rust. One wonders what magic mix (if any) is present on the other products.