TheSamba.com :: View topic - My 63 body on a 59 pan Herbie project car

Tue Dec 02, 2014 2:12 pm

Hey everyone, I'm new to the site but not to Bugs in general.
I had 3 (67,68,& a 70) in the past, but that was over 15 years ago.
I had always wanted an earlier year (63) that I could convert over to a Herbie (I know,but I love that car) but never could find/afford one.
However, a couple days ago I got this from my wife as an early Christmas present:

It's been sitting for over 12 years and it's in need of lots of love.
It's a 59 pan, but the body was changed out long ago to what I believe to be a 61. That's why it's not gonna be too big of a crime to make it into a Herbie as opposed to restoring it to what it once was.

This thing screams the 80's in SoCal.
Hawaiian Rubber,shaved turn signals, 5 spoke EMPIs, Decklid stand-off kit, the works.
All that's missing is a "Local Motion" or "Bad Boy Club" sticker in the back window. :D
I have a long way to go, but I wanted to at least start a thread.
Wish me luck :vw:

Tue Dec 02, 2014 2:18 pm

Welcome to the samba......
there is the answer to ANY VW question in the tech section and the search feature . please learn how to use both .

When I started here I read the build threads to learn what was involved in a major project .
Please consider an upgrade to a 67+ dual master cylinder for safety .

Tue Dec 02, 2014 4:05 pm

Thank you.
The brakes will need a serious upgrade from the stock drums.
The engine on this is claimed to be a 2180cc (don't know if that's true yet) so it'll have to have something to make it stop better than the old drums

Wed Dec 03, 2014 3:56 pm

that engine in the photo is going to have some cooling issues with the oil cooler right over the cold air intake, and the funky aftermarket fan house that likely is not designed well missing critical internal vanes and such. get the engine bay in order so the motor will last long and not over heat.

you can buy disc brakes for the car, or get some performance shoes and live with what you got for a while. That engine needs some original german cooling parts to be right, and the oil cooler needs to be moved out of the engine bay.

It appears to be a nice looking body of a very desirable year to have. the pan although a 58 is not that much different than the 61 Pan. which tranny does she have, the split case or tunnel type? (split is stock for 58, tunnel type for 61)

any collision damage noted????, as often that is why a body is swapped out on a different pan.

PS I like the Hebie look, the VW's dealers used to sell a decal kit for making a Herbie, remember seeing them in the dealer show room when I was a kid picking up parts with my Dad. Dad didn't buy the decal (would have looked funny on a green bug anyway,) but Dad did by me a nice shinny red metal Bug about a foot long that had a battery operated motor and it would drive around, even has a clear deck lid so you could see the clear motor and the pistons moving back and forth as it drove along the floor. He got it from the dealer parts department. I still have that red toy bug, close to 40+ years later.

Bugs are so darn cool, everything about them is cool.

Wed Dec 03, 2014 4:18 pm

bluebus86 wrote: that engine in the photo is going to have some cooling issues with the oil cooler right over the cold air intake, and the funky aftermarket fan house that likely is not designed well missing critical internal vanes and such. get the engine bay in order so the motor will last long and not over heat. That engine needs some original german cooling parts to be right, and the oil cooler needs to be moved out of the engine bay.
oh yeah, lots of changes to the engine bay.
I am going to begin by pulling it out and getting it resealed and cleaned up.Then, all the tin goes back on and most likely a Doghouse cooler (is that still a good option?)
Cooling is critical as I live in the High Desert of Southern California and we see temps well over 100 degrees throughtout the summer.
bluebus86 wrote:
you can buy disc brakes for the car, or get some performance shoes and live with what you got for a while.
I plan on a disc brake kit (for the front at least) before I go driving it too much
bluebus86 wrote:
It appears to be a nice looking body of a very desirable year to have. the pan although a 58 is not that much different than the 61 Pan. which tranny does she have, the split case or tunnel type? (split is stock for 58, tunnel type for 61)

any collision damage noted????, as often that is why a body is swapped out on a different pan.
It's a 59, not a 58 pan. (at least that's what it's registered as )
here's the VIN

I haven't gotten it home yet to even look at the trans.
I looked at the front clip and it looks like it was replaced before, the rear apron appears original (not an H) and will need replaced due to rust issues.
The body itself looks really straight, but there is rust at the base of the A pillars. It's not bad,but it's there.
The rest looks good, but it's hard to tell.
The hood is dented, but it's not original (wrong color underneath) .It looks like a nice hood, so i may just repair the dent.
bluebus86 wrote:
PS I like the Hebie look, the VW's dealers used to sell a decal kit for making a Herbie, remember seeing them in the dealer show room when I was a kid picking up parts with my Dad. Dad didn't buy the decal (would have looked funny on a green bug anyway,) but Dad did by me a nice shinny red metal Bug about a foot long that had a battery operated motor and it would drive around, even has a clear deck lid so you could see the clear motor and the pistons moving back and forth as it drove along the floor. He got it from the dealer parts department. I still have that red toy bug, close to 40+ years later.

Bugs are so darn cool, everything about them is cool.
Glad you hung on to the toy. it's a good reminder of your childhood memories.

Wed Dec 03, 2014 5:18 pm

an original german (avoid the aftermarket reproduction ones!!!) dog house cooling system is the best, for the big motor you may want to get a late fuel injected smog control bug fan house, as it directed more air to the heads at expense of the oil cooler, I assume you may still do a remote oil cooler, maybe place it under the car above the tranny with an electric fan. thus you get the best head cooling from the later injected car dog house, yet still can keep the oil cool with both the stock cooler and the remote cooler.
But any german VW dog house fan set up is superior to what is in their now, just is the last injected cars had more air for the heads, less to the cooler. lean mixtures in the smog control days in the mid/late 1970's forced higher head temps, which VW tried to mitigate by blowing more air over them.

you will need to keep the engine lid propped open when you convert to the dog house, as it draws a lot more air than the non-dog house fan that was stock for 1961, and the 61 engine lid is not louvered like on the later cars. the bigger fan from the dog house will suck a vacuum in your engine bay unless you cut louvers, prop the lid open or install a convertible engine lid. you will notice this at freeway speeds as the engine loose power as it is being robbed of air by the fast turning larger fan!!! the problem is worse if you have the old stock gear ratio of an early car, as the engine turns a good deal faster with the lower ratio gears found on the early cars verses the later cars.

yeah my bad, I don't know why wrote it was a 1958 rather than a 1959, other than I had a 58 once, actually I remember I still have a 58, but it is a ghia, I sold my 58 bug 25 years ago. but still have Dads old 61, the green one that would have looked funny in Herbie decals!!!

Thu Dec 04, 2014 4:07 pm

bluebus86 wrote:

you will need to keep the engine lid propped open when you convert to the dog house, as it draws a lot more air than the non-dog house fan that was stock for 1961, and the 61 engine lid is not louvered like on the later cars. the bigger fan from the dog house will suck a vacuum in your engine bay unless you cut louvers, prop the lid open or install a convertible engine lid. you will notice this at freeway speeds as the engine loose power as it is being robbed of air by the fast turning larger fan!!! the problem is worse if you have the old stock gear ratio of an early car, as the engine turns a good deal faster with the lower ratio gears found on the early cars verses the later cars.

hmmm...
I was thinking of adding an external cooler with an electric fan to help cool.
I didn't know that I'd have to keep the decklid standoffs or increase ventilation in the engine bay with louvers.
I really do not want to do either of those as they would be inaccurate for a Herbie conversion.

Fri Dec 05, 2014 11:50 am

I changed out the front tires last night (so i can tow it home tomorrow)
While I was there , I looked it over a little more.
Here's my dash

I hope the radio will cover the modified cutout of the dash. If not, then I'll have to fill it, but I hope not.
Also, why is the knob above the radio gone?

The A-pillars have some rust ,but it doesn't look too bad.

And yes, that's water on the pan. The ragtop cover is smoked, and it rained this week.

I'll take a bunch of pictures tomorrow after I get it home.

Sat Dec 06, 2014 11:07 am

I went over and picked the car up to bring it home (finally)

But, on the way home I stopped in the car wash to try and spray the 12 years of dirt off.
I think I may have gotten 7-8 years, but not all 12 :)

And here he is at home now.

Sat Dec 06, 2014 12:48 pm

slave1pilot wrote:

.

Hmmmm.. has the front heat door tracks.... thats no 58-59 or 61 body.. unless the channels have been changed..

What makes you think its a 61?
If the channels look original... thats a 62-63 unless it's had a ragtop graft, then it could be a 64 as well.

How many door hinge bolt holes on the body?

VOLKSWAGNUT wrote: The number of hinge bolts doesn't really matter for the doors.
VW just decided to omit one hole and bolt in the 1962 production year. It cut parts cost and labor.
That's just business...

glutamodo wrote:
Hinge bolts:

Sat Dec 06, 2014 1:40 pm

VOLKSWAGNUT wrote:

Hmmmm.. has the front heat door tracks.... thats no 58-59 or 61 body.. unless the channels have been changed..

No, the heater channels do not appear to have been changed out.

VOLKSWAGNUT wrote:
What makes you think its a 61?
If the channels look original... thats a 62-63 unless it's had a ragtop graft, then it could be a 64 as well.
I thought it was a 61 due to the tail lights being snowflakes

The PO said that he had no idea what the PO before him had done. He knew they had replaced the body on the 59 (it's registered as a 59 BTW) and he thought it was a 61 but wasnt sure.
The ragtop has no signs of a graft .And judging by the other mods on the car, I would think iot would be obvious if they had grafted it on.

VOLKSWAGNUT wrote:
How many door hinge bolt holes on the body?

There are three upper and three lower.

so, it's a 62 or 63?
Thank you for your help IDing the year. I do appreciate it

Sat Dec 06, 2014 2:20 pm

I was looking across the interwebs trying to find the differences between a 62 and a 63.
One of the changes is the ragtop handle.
Here's mine:

Can anyone else help to ID my car?
No vin plates anywhere on the car.
The Engine isn't original
The Decklid and hood are not original to the body (underside paint doesn't match)
Ultimately, it really doesn't matter since they are so close. It's just for my own peace of mind.

Sat Dec 06, 2014 2:27 pm

Never try to decipher years by bolt on parts.. that's "Identifying the year of your VW 101".... :lol:

Always use the non easily changed main body :wink:

Its a 1963.. body.
3 hinge holes for door hinges and the folding Golde roof handle nails it.
If the roof sunroof sliding rails are one piece track per side (no short rears) .. and has large round rear floor heat outlet tubes under the rear seat that confirms 63 even more.

Guess you get that Herbie after all.. still dont know why though.. they bring attention without all the stripes and numbers...
go magnetic or vinyl wrap accents.

Your car.. make it how ya like.. and enjoy.. thats the most important thing.

.

Sat Dec 06, 2014 4:45 pm

VOLKSWAGNUT wrote: Never try to decipher years by bolt on parts.. that's "Identifying the year of your VW 101".... :lol:

Always use non the easily changed main body :wink:
I figured that,but I didn't know the difference between 62 and 63 bodies.

VOLKSWAGNUT wrote:
Its a 1963.. body.
3 hinge holes for door hinges and the folding Golde roof handle nails it.
If the roof sunroof sliding rails are one piece track per side (no short rears) .. and has large round rear floor heat outlet tubes under the rear seat that confirms 63 even more.
Here's a Birds-eye view of the rails (and heater outlet tubes)

VOLKSWAGNUT wrote:
Guess you get that Herbie after all.. still dont know why though.. they bring attention without all the stripes and numbers...
go magnetic or vinyl wrap accents.

Your car.. make it how ya like.. and enjoy.. thats the most important thing.

Yeah, I'm happy that it's a 63
I know not everyone loves the Herbie conversion, I totally get that.
But, it's one of the things I wanted to do for a long long time.

I know they draw attention regardless of the flashiness.
My old '67 used to get honks and waves constantly.
and...
Just towing this thing home today in it's present condition drew many looks and smiles.

Sat Dec 06, 2014 6:11 pm

I am partial to support your herbie conversion...wonder why?? That is a nice looking car you have!!!

Sat Dec 06, 2014 9:11 pm

Thank you for the support.

I edited the title to reflect the 63

Sun Dec 07, 2014 4:47 am

In one of the photos above it looks like the deck lid is hinged to catch that extra cooling air needed for your bigger engine.

Sun Dec 07, 2014 10:00 am

Congratulations slave1, you have a very understanding and enthusiastic wife to provide you with such a project!

Here are some observations:
I also agree with the body being a '63 based on the sunroof folding handle (1 year only) and the non-H apron. Also, the door handles are the non-ice pick style which started as of the 1960 model year.

Absolutely keep the non-H apron style if you must replace it, since that style is much easier for removing the engine than an H-apron would be. And Herbie had the later apron style.

The taillamps are mounted way too high to be correct for a '58 thru '61. Even if you use those same mounting holes for the correct '62-era taillamps, they might still be too high. The '62 era taillamps had one more wire going to them than the '61 and earlier. You will hopefully find the extra wire cut back at the wheelwell, or behind the side tarboard panels. Do you have a good repair manual with a colored wiring diagram? If not, this one is correct for your "body" and will help you alot-
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/info/wiring/bug_62.jpg
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/info/wiring/bug_62_key.jpg

Your dash should have holes for a passenger grab handle above the glovebox. But since the windshield wiper/washer switch has been removed, the grab handle holes might also have been closed up at the same time.

Your right rear wheel seems to be off center in the wheelwell, slightly forward. Make sure you have the 3 large bolts inboard of the wheel which hold the axle end to the back of the trailing arm spring plate.

Do you know the large pick-a-part yard in Adelanto on US 395 (Ecology Auto Parts), just north of the industrial airport? I stopped in there while driving back from Las Vegas this past March, just to look at their VWs. They had about 20 Beetles there, though nearly all were from the big-bumper era. They'd be worth a try to find a complete doghouse and other engine tin, especially the rear breast plate which you MUST have. Here's a shot of mine which I posted for the Type 3 forum from that visit; you can still see plenty of Beetles in this row. There was another row facing this one with more Beetles-

Once you do get your doghouse shroud engine in place, you can also use a decklid stand-off for the bottom of the lid, to move it away from the body about 2". That will not be as noticeable as louvers, nor like the stand-offs for the top of the lid; and will help with supplying cooling air alot.

I was just in Lancaster on Monday while out on a driving trip visiting in-laws in LA. Turned off Rt 14 onto Ave. G westbound to the musical road. Then went onto Rt 138 west and drove a small amount on the old Ridge Route.

Sun Dec 07, 2014 2:29 pm

Rome wrote: Congratulations slave1, you have a very understanding and enthusiastic wife to provide you with such a project!
She is absolutely fantastic.
We've been together since 1985, so that helps a bit.
When I got the bug home, she came out and told me I needed to bead blast it to see what I'm dealing with underneath .
I think I'll keep her around ;)
Rome wrote:
Here are some observations:

Absolutely keep the non-H apron style if you must replace it, since that style is much easier for removing the engine than an H-apron would be. And Herbie had the later apron style.
The rear apron is really bad off. It'll have to be replaced either way

Rome wrote:
Do you have a good repair manual with a colored wiring diagram? If not, this one is correct for your "body" and will help you alot-
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/info/wiring/bug_62.jpg
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/info/wiring/bug_62_key.jpg
No repair manuals yet, I'm still doing the tear down (from memory)
Thanks for the links
Rome wrote:

Your dash should have holes for a passenger grab handle above the glovebox. But since the windshield wiper/washer switch has been removed, the grab handle holes might also have been closed up at the same time.
Yeah, that's exactly what the PO did.
The tabs are tack welded from behind and then filled in with Bondo from the front.
Not the easiest fix, but t least he didn't weld the holes closed.
[img]http://i1288.photobucket.com/albums/b482/TK-439/Herbie/5E3A74C5-881D-401E-80E2-6444799345B5_zps36ldpocv.jpg[/img

Rome wrote:
Your right rear wheel seems to be off center in the wheelwell, slightly forward. Make sure you have the 3 large bolts inboard of the wheel which hold the axle end to the back of the trailing arm spring plate.
I'll have to take look next time I'm underneath there.

Rome wrote:
Do you know the large pick-a-part yard in Adelanto on US 395 (Ecology Auto Parts), just north of the industrial airport? I stopped in there while driving back from Las Vegas this past March, just to look at their VWs. They had about 20 Beetles there, though nearly all were from the big-bumper era. They'd be worth a try to find a complete doghouse and other engine tin, especially the rear breast plate which you MUST have. Here's a shot of mine which I posted for the Type 3 forum from that visit; you can still see plenty of Beetles in this row. There was another row facing this one with more Beetles-

Yep, I've been there a couple of times.
The VW selection is all too new (like you said) and there's not much there I want .
I'm gonna take a trip to Pomona for one of the swap meets and see what's there. I need a full interior. I have no seats and the steering column and wheel need replaced too.
Rome wrote:
Once you do get your doghouse shroud engine in place, you can also use a decklid stand-off for the bottom of the lid, to move it away from the body about 2". That will not be as noticeable as louvers, nor like the stand-offs for the top of the lid; and will help with supplying cooling air alot.
I may have to pursue that route.Thank you for the advice.

Rome wrote:
I was just in Lancaster on Monday while out on a driving trip visiting in-laws in LA. Turned off Rt 14 onto Ave. G westbound to the musical road. Then went onto Rt 138 west and drove a small amount on the old Ridge Route.
The musical road used to be on Ave H. They moved it due to people complaints by the residents. It doesn't just make noise inside the car, but also outside of the car. The people that lived there were sick of heraing it and all the extra traffic (when it was new)
On a side note: I worked at the Honda test track back when they were designing the road. The came out to the track and cut several sections to make different tones to see if it was even possible.

Wed Dec 10, 2014 7:54 pm

So...
Tonight on a whim I decided to see if I can rotate the motor by hand using a breaker bar on the crank pulley.
no dice. Won't budge a fraction
I guess I shoulda tried that before haggling the price.