TheSamba.com :: View topic - Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle

Tue Oct 01, 2019 6:00 am

thanks all,

we'll get it apart this winter, it's the spare AT at the moment anyways..

I've a Porsche 944 internals to put in ;-)

Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:15 am

Alright.

So my new friction and steels came in yesterday. Started piecing the DD back together, and I THINK I found the source of my issue.

I decided to check the end play again, and after doing so, it appears that I have an entire MM of too much end play. My best guess is that when I checked the end play gap last time, I might not have pushed the circlip all the way UP in the DD, therefor not getting an accurate measurement.

That said, per the Bentley, they sell different size Circlips to account for this. My current clip is 2.0mm. According to the Bentley, the largest clip made is 2.5mm which won't get me there.

Any thoughts on best steps forward?

Worth noting that my Bentley is for the Vanagon, and the DD is from the Audi. So it's possible that the specs are different...but I can't imagine they would be THAT different.

New vs. Old.

Gap shown without circlip installed.

Circlip size notes:

Bentley:

Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:22 am

shooting from the hip because I really don't know if you can or should
but can you use/stack 2 circlips to get the dimensions you need?

Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:28 am

Hey Dan,

Good question. Does anybody else know if this is a valid solution?

The 1.5mm circlip, in addition to mine would get me down to the low end of the tolerance of 2.0mm.

Or I could go with a 1.5 and a 1.7 to put me in the middle of the gap range.

Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:33 am

hmm this is interesting.
I have all of my parts laid out to assemble my direct drum.
I will try to get it together tonight and see what it measures.
Maybe one more set of numbers will at least give us some sort of baseline to work with.

I have not looked at the procedure but I also wonder how the piston is properly located when doing this measurement.
Is it possible that initial assembly may have pressed the piston in a bit further than it should be?

It is possible to hit it with a little air to engage the clutch then let the springs push it back then measure again?

Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:56 am

I find it hard to believe there is something not right with that much clearence.

That said, IF everything is set up perfect AND the clearence is too large, I would not have a problem stacking to clips to obtain that gap. That is assuming that there is enough room to stack the clips. I would stagger the clips.

Are all the steels the same thickness? Could you stack an extra steel and use a thinner clip?

Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:16 am

Interesting thought in applying air to release and then reseat the piston. Then I could check the gap again.

As far as I cam tell the piston is sitting on a lip in the direct drum, so it can't sit any lower, and any higher there would be a gap, so I believe it is installed correctly.

The steels are 2mm, and the frictions are 2.25mm. By my math, I could not add another friction and make it up with a circlip, at least not with the available circlip sizes.

Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:21 am

where/what is your source for these incremental lock rings?
some part#'s are listing as discontinued. care to share your source(s)?

looks like 010-323-157 (A) (H or C) (J or D) are available.

I've found this had most. listed
https://parts.porschemonterey.com/search?search_str=010-323-157

http://www.autoatlanta.com/porsche-parts/hardparts...10323157#a

Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:26 am

I just began looking and didn't see them many places. That Porsche website might be the best source. They have the 157 A, but not the B, so I could order that and give it a shot.

WIT does not carry them.

Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:34 am

wonder if Matt can get them?

Thu Oct 03, 2019 11:35 am

h00drat wrote: The steels are 2mm, and the frictions are 2.25mm. By my math, I could not add another friction and make it up with a circlip, at least not with the available circlip sizes.

I do not think it's wise to have two frictions together. If you added a 2.0mm steel and a 1.5mm circlip, you should be in the ball park. The problem is if you do not have a 1.5mm clip.

I still think you are missing something.

Thu Oct 03, 2019 11:49 am

I wouldn't put two frictions together. Adding a friction seems like a bad solution compared to doubling up clips.

I don't know where/how I would add a friction even if I wanted to.

The current layout it this...

Piston
Steel
Friction
Steel
Friction
Steel
Friction
Steel
Friction
Large Spacer (steel)
Circlip

What do you think I'm missing?

Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:17 pm

I’ll check the Audi manual tomorrow if I remember. I have a vague memory of different thickness final steel in one drum.I’ll also slip a feeler blade in the Vanagon assembled drum I have 4 sale. If I were adding a second circlip, I’d be suspect of my assembly.

Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:29 pm

Matt reminded me that I'm looking at the Vanagon Bentley, and therefor Vanagon part numbers. I need to try to find the Audi Bentley somewhere so that I can confirm what the gap is suppose to be, and then what the part numbers would be for any replacement parts.

Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:52 pm

This is interesting. The diagram posted by Kourt, back on this page:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...;start=260

Shows an entirely different stacking method.

It looks like...

Piston
FRICTION (I have a steel here)
Steel
Friction
Steel
Friction
Steel
Friction
Steel
Friction
Steel
SPACER

This layout actually has an extra friction AND an extra steel (between the last friction and the spacer). That would add 4.25mm of height to my stack, so there's no way I could fit the clip on there.

Thu Oct 03, 2019 3:05 pm

You can’t trust a parts diagram. You need the service manual and even those have errors peppered in them.

Thu Oct 03, 2019 3:09 pm

Bummer. I thought I had found the 5000t Bentley online during my first rebuild but I haven't been able to track it down.

Thu Oct 03, 2019 7:00 pm

Well it does not help your cause any but I put my DD pack back together and it all fits real nice.
I have a 2mm thick snap ring and my end play or whatever it's called is approximately 2.23mm

Thu Oct 03, 2019 8:22 pm

That’s really interesting. You’re using the Audi DD with the same friction/steel orientation that I am?

I tried compressing the plates with compressed air, and I’m still getting the 3.5mm gap.

Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:54 pm

Yes I have the same set up. Piston-steel-friction-steel-friction-steel-friction-steel-friction-thick steel plate-snap ring.
All this in an Audi DD HUB.

I could probably take it back apart and we can do some measuring to see where the main difference might be.

That's about the only way I can think to get to the bottom of this.