TheSamba.com :: View topic - Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle

Thu Aug 13, 2015 11:40 am

falkortheluckwagon wrote:
I was seeing temperatures for the trans as high as 240 (and the diff is around the same often hotter).

What kind of engine are you running?

Thu Aug 13, 2015 5:22 pm

My compliments for a beautiful Vanagon build, falkortheluckwagon. I think I now know why your transmission was running warm. Subi powered, lots of added weight with a Peloquin posi-trac..that will make some extra transmission heat. A transmission cooler placed up front is an excellent idea. That should help cool the diff too.

http://liveworkwander.com/our-vw-vanagon-build/

Thu Aug 13, 2015 7:21 pm

Hello Everyone,

I just saw this thread and I looked it over. I did not see anyone discuss lowering the stall speed on the torque converter which will reduce slipping which in turn reduce heat. This is a good idea for people running a 170HP and up motors. I offer this modification. I am also looking into building a locking Torque converter.

The Ford motor will not be able to pull my 3.27 R&P. I will be building the 3.73 R&P for the Bostig motors, 2.2L Subaru and all variations of the WBX motors in the next couple of months.

As for the coolers I would suggest a 72 plate cooler with a 180 degree thermo-switch. Here is a complete kit I am offering: http://countryhomescampers.com/products/transmission/super-flier-transmission-cooler-kit

The GW and FAS coolers are good for the WBX and all variations up to 115HP. Once you get over 115HP I suggest a bigger cooler.

When you do decide to rebuild your transmission please check the pump. If this fails all these modifications go out the window.

As for the Audi upgrade, I would suggest the 4 gear planetary. Everything else is over-kill. Unless you have a 250hp and up motor. Then the larger clutch pack would also be a good idea.

If you are using the GM ATF which VW recommends then the temperature ranges are as follows (note: this is for a 2.5 Subie with my cooler and reduced stall speed torque converter in a 5,500lbs camper):

Normal flat driving on a 70 to 90 degree day- 140 to 170 degrees.
Hill driving on a 70 to 90 degree day- 170 to 190
6% mountain driving on a 70 to 90 degree day- 190 to 230 degrees.

Please note the ATF will start eating your seals at 270 degrees. I would say the start of the readline is 240 and high is 265 degrees. You will need to slow down or pull over for 10 minutes to cool the transmission.

All this information is based on my 91 CHC Vanagon. You can also read more information here:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4...p;start=80
Start around page 4.

If anyone sees anything wrong with my information please share so we can discuss it.

I hope this helps and clears some questions.

Cheers,

Thu Aug 13, 2015 7:30 pm

Smiro wrote: Hello Everyone,

I just saw this thread and I looked it over. I did not see anyone discuss lowering the stall speed on the torque converter which will reduce slipping which in turn reduce heat. This is a good idea for people running a 170HP and up motors. I offer this modification. I am also looking into building a locking Torque converter.

The Ford motor will not be able to pull my 3.27 R&P. I will be building the 3.73 R&P for the Bostig motors, 2.2L Subaru and all variations of the WBX motors in the next couple of months.

As for the coolers I would suggest a 72 plate cooler with a 180 degree thermo-switch. Here is a complete kit I am offering: http://countryhomescampers.com/products/transmission/super-flier-transmission-cooler-kit

The GW and FAS coolers are good for the WBX and all variations up to 115HP. Once you get over 115HP I suggest a bigger cooler.

When you do decide to rebuild your transmission please check the pump. If this fails all these modifications go out the window.

As for the Audi upgrade, I would suggest the 4 gear planetary. Everything else is over-kill. Unless you have a 250hp and up motor. Then the larger clutch pack would also be a good idea.

If you are using the GM ATF which VW recommends then the temperature ranges are as follows (note: this is for a 2.5 Subie with my cooler and reduced stall speed torque converter in a 5,500lbs camper):

Normal flat driving on a 70 to 90 degree day- 140 to 170 degrees.
Hill driving on a 70 to 90 degree day- 170 to 190
6% mountain driving on a 70 to 90 degree day- 190 to 230 degrees.

Please note the ATF will start eating your seals at 270 degrees. I would say the start of the readline is 240 and high is 265 degrees. You will need to slow down or pull over for 10 minutes to cool the transmission.

All this information is based on my 91 CHC Vanagon. You can also read more information here:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4...p;start=80
Start around page 4.

If anyone sees anything wrong with my information please share so we can discuss it.

I hope this helps and clears some questions.

Cheers,

The GTA "Turbo Upgrade" ($800) comes with a stall converter vs. a torque converter. Stephan didn't/doesn't like how that works with my 1.8T (200hp w/ss exhaust) and your 3.27 R&P. He swapped out my GTA stall converter for a OEM torque converter. So far so good, but... my trans is slipping slightly going into 3rd (auto). Back to Stephan's this fall... Not his fault at all, but needs to be fixed. Love the ratio and power band of the 3.27.

Thu Aug 13, 2015 7:38 pm

Howdy,

I just got back from a 3200 mile trip to the high points of NM, UT and a 14k peak in Colorado. That drive included around 53,000 ft of total elevation gained and lost, and a peak driven elevation of over 12,000 at the third highest paved road in the US (Rocky Mountain National Park). I went through a lot of mountain passes and I watched my transmission carefully.

Keep in mind this is a 91 Westy Automatic, with full water tanks, fuel tanks, three house batteries, full vanobag in the luggage rack, three adult males, all their backcountry gear, and all their food (a complete menu, 3 meals per day) for two weeks (including beer and surplus water). We were very heavily laden--easily over 6,000 lbs gross.

The current build state of my transmission: original configuration automatic transaxle with shaved governor, connected to a Bostig conversion, to 15" wheels running 205/70/15 Nokian Hakka C Vans. Normal suspension. Original differential/R&P. Derale automatic transmission filter kit with temperature sender, leading to a thermostatically controlled Derale parallel flow ATF cooler with thermostatically controlled puller fan. Everything is plumbed with AN-6 hose/fittings.

The temperature gauge shows the temp of fluid leaving the AT on its way to the ATF cooler, so what I see is the worst possible temps for the fluid, before it has been cooled.

Driving habits:

Speeds are GPS verified.

75 MPH on the flat highways, 4500 RPM (the Bostig can do this all day and it's at its most fuel efficient at this RPM).
Many miles in just 2nd gear, 45 to 60 MPH, up to 5500 RPM, in the mountain passes, up to 5% grade up or downhill (lots of engine braking) (again, the Bostig seems to love it--no problems, and excellent fuel efficiency).
Fewer miles, but still a significant amount, in just 1st gear, 25 to 35 MPH, up to 6000 RPM, in the mountain passes, 5% to 8% grade, up or downhill (lots of engine braking).
About an hour on graded dirt roads in WY an UT at 30 MPH in 2nd gear, but fairly level.
About an hour on absolutely terrible wet, muddy, rocky, rutted backcountry 4x4 roads in 1st gear that we shouldn't have been on (but we made it out amazingly--a true test of the Vanagon 2wd automatic's capability).

Notes:
Coming home today through Texas, 95 to 105 degrees on US 84 from Lubbock to Goldthwaite, driving 75 MPH, the transmission held around 195 and peaked around 205.

Interstate 40 westbound through New Mexico to ABQ, gaining 3,000 ft. elevation over several relentless miles, hot afternoon, 65 MPH, struggling up hills, peak temperature 220. I heard the Derale cooler fan kick in automatically on several occasions. One time I pulled in to a truck stop suddenly and turned the van off--and the Derale stayed on and cooled the ATF to below the fan t-stat threshold, then turned off automatically, just as designed. It did its job.

1st or 2nd gear mountain passes, at elevation (cooler outside temperatures), temps running around 180 to 200.

Really steep muddy mountain roads (climbing to the 10,000 ft. Wheeler Peak basecamp in Taos Ski Valley, NM, or to the 8,400 ft cabin outside Estes Park, CO), all 1st gear, around 10 to 15MPH max, the temp would climb quickly to 195 and stay right there.

Summary: the cooling system I have in place now worked very well on some of the most demanding conditions imaginable--heavily laden Westy in summer mountain driving. The peak ATF temp was 220F. The temp I observed the most while driving the highways at high speed was around 195.

Other notes: my differential drive flange seals are leaking again... this probably means the bearings in the differential are shot. I had to add differential fluid twice on this trip, and I have a nice sulfurous spray of diff gear oil on the back of the van. I had a lot of time to think about this repair, but I still haven't made up my mind if I'll just do the bearings or get the whole Peloquin now. After my offroad adventures this week I'm not sure a Peloquin is really necessary--what kept me from getting stuck was inertia, patience, and a little driving skill. I also had a lot of time to think about the power band and the R&P ratio. I have a stock R&P and there were times it was tough to climb grades in first gear--which to me is a sign that I shouldn't change it to 3.27 R&P, which would make things even more difficult in such climbing conditions. I am seeing the merits of the original R&P ratio now.

I hope this helps--let me know if you have more questions.

kourt

Thu Aug 13, 2015 11:06 pm

Kourt,

You are correct not to purchase my 3.27 R&P. I stated that in my last note. I think you should keep your factory 4.01 R&P. Your numbers tell me you are keeping your transmission nice and cool. Which is good thing. Please remember the more horse power you add to any transmission the heat factor goes up. I have a 2.5 Subaru with 165 to 170 HP. My transmission will get hotter than yours. So will the 1.8T and the 3L and 3.3L Subaru motors.

On another note it sounds like your differential is over heating. How many miles do you have on your differential? Has it been rebuilt? Are you hearing a hum or noise from your differential? The top end for a stock vanagon is 79MPH. You are cruising at 75MPH for long periods. Not sure if this is the cause but it is something to think about. I have to be careful as well because I go 80 to 90MPH. My RPMs at 90 are 4150. This shows my motor is not working as hard and neither is my transmission but the bearings in my differential are. The Ring gear is spinning fast and working hard. I will talk to Eric at Transworks who has 30 years experience building VW transmission. He builds my transmission I have on my site.

Cheers,

Thu Aug 13, 2015 11:13 pm

@Thank you Gerry,

Did GTA place a new Audi clutch pack or used ones in your transmission?

Cheers,

Thu Aug 13, 2015 11:25 pm

Kourt,

I just realized something. Your motor has a higher RPM than the WBX. The WBX red-lines at 5100rpms. You are taking your transmission up to 6000rpms with stock gearing. This could be a factor in your differential leaking. If you get the 3.73 R&P this will help with dropping the RPMs. Just a thought.

Cheers,

Fri Aug 14, 2015 6:30 am

Howdy,

Thank you for your replies, smiro. I do look forward to the opportunity to try a 3.73 R&P in this transmission. Please let us know the progress on that product.

Time spent above 4500 RPM in my van is very limited, but I am sensitive to the damage it may cause. For the short term I have decided to change the differential bearings this month. I am looking at Timken replacement bearings and cups.

I view the issue of temperature management on the transmission as also including proper engine temperature management. There was a time when my Bostig ran very hot and that contributed to the transmission running very hot. The Bostig now runs cooler, but I may have shortened the life of the bearings in the first year of running a hot Bostig.

My differential shows signs of service from the prior owner, but I don't think the bearings were ever replaced. I have a few Vanagon automatic transaxles lying around and I will make some comparisons. I do not hear any significant hum while running this differential.

I also have the Audi turbo planetary gears, which I will add to the transmission.

Thanks to all for your contributions to this thread. Let's keep talking.

kourt

Fri Aug 14, 2015 9:25 am

Hello Everyone,

I just spoke to Eric and http://transworks.biz/ I was wrong on the RPM of the engine. The RPMs do not affect the final drive because the axles are spinning at the speed you are going. The only time the motor plays a part in wearing the transmission and final drive is when we are going up hill and we are pushing the van more than VW intended. We are pushing more horse power to go faster and using more torque to do it. This causes heat. On a flat road and you are going 65MPH and you decide to go 75MPH it only takes about 15hp to increase your speed. The motor is fighting wind and friction of the tires on the road.

As for Kourt, Eric suggests to start at your axles to make sure they are straight and placed on correctly. If you have any wobble this may cause excessive wear on the flanges. The flanges have a 1/8" wobble built-in into them already. If your axles are fine then he suggest to change your final drive bearings and pinion bearings. This requires a full overhaul of your differential. Eric also said that these differentials do not just fail. There is usually a cascading effect. Something else caused your flanges to fail. A bent or warn axle could cause the flanges to leak. It could be when you noticed the leaking flanges you had run the differential low in gear oil causing it to heat up and harden the seals. Warn bearings is another culprit. Pinion bearings tend to wear out first. There is a number of things that could have failed before the flanges started to leak.

Our suggestion is to over haul your differential. Replace the final drive and pinion bearings and all seals.

Hope this helps.

Fri Aug 14, 2015 11:31 am

Howdy Smiro,

Your comments here are helpful. I have jogged my memory and I think I know exactly what is causing the drive flange leak.

I remember after installing the Bostig that the driver side axle was a little tight in its mating with the differential. This was a sure sign that the engine was installed a few millimeters too far to the driver's side. This inboard pressure on the differential from the driver side axle would easily cause such a leak over time... and the differential is only leaking from that side.

I'm lucky here in that I can easily solve this problem by loosening and shifting the engine a few millimeters to the passenger side.

I will also service the bearings in the differential.

Great discussion... let's keep it going. I'll followup once my repairs are done.

kourt

Fri Aug 14, 2015 3:43 pm

Smiro wrote: @Thank you Gerry,

Did GTA place a new Audi clutch pack or used ones in your transmission?

Cheers,

This is the answer I received from a GTA email today:

"The clutch housing is out of an Audi. The housing is used however the clutches are new."

And for another point of reference for this thread:

This is the description from GTA about what is included in their optional "Turbo Upgrade" package:

"The additional $800 includes: 4 gear planetary; larger direct reverse drum; extra clutch in forward clutch and an RV stall converter."

This is the total cost breakdown for a GTA rebuilt auto trans with the "turbo" package (in 2014):

Rebuilt Auto Trans 1595.00
Turbo Upgrade 800.00
Core Deposit 750.00
FAS cooler kit 299.95
Shipping (B to B West Coast) 335.38
--------------------------------------
Grand Total $3780.33 (inc. core deposit above)

Even more options (just parts, not labor):

CHC 3.27 R&P (best for 170+++ HP) $1560
3.73 R&P (best for 120-150HP) $???? (NLA... but available from CHC "soon")
Peloquin TBD $1100
CHC Cooling Fan/Kit $500 (IIRC?)

*Salim... Please let me know if the above HP figures and prices regarding CHC products are not correct and I will edit them.

Tue Sep 01, 2015 8:10 am

Audi 5000 Turbo internals update:

I've started work on building and documenting the layman's Audi 5000 Turbo internals upgrade for the Vanagon automatic transmission.

I have three VW/Audi transmissions:

-a 1982 Audi 5000 turbo auto transmission with 53,000 miles, that suffered ATF/coolant intermixing due to transmission cooler failure

-a 1985 Vanagon/Westy auto transmission with unknown miles, worked when removed from donor van

-a 1991 Vanagon/Westy auto transmission that is presently in my van

This past weekend I separated the 85 trans from its differential and laid out the 82 Audi and 85 VW on the bench. I measured and compared the two, drained fluids, and took a look at the internals. Everything looks good, though the 82 Audi has some signs of heat on the forward planet shell (622 in the diagram below).

(Reference document at http://www.jpat.co.uk/87%20Volkswagen%201%20010%20087etc.pdf ... this is a good PDF that can be zoomed in for reference in build order for the transmission parts)

Where the famous Campground Rebuild thread is written in a way that puts the essential Vanagon parts into an Audi transmission, my approach is the opposite--to take the needed parts from an Audi and insert them into the Vanagon transmission.

The 82 Audi trans casing lacks transmission cooler ports, so I will either drill those into the case or use the 91 casing. My goal is to have two rebuilt transmissions from this process: the 91 VW with Audi internals and a second unit sitting on the shelf, with the third unit assembled but designated for parts.

It looks like items 604/594 (ring gear), plus 665/654 (sprag and carrier bearing), 251 (bronze washer, 4-prong), 584 (reverse planetary gear set), 244 (another bronze washer, 4-prong), 243 (washer, drive shell), 622 (drive shell), 612 (double sun gear), 582 (forward planet), 592 (ring gear) should all convey from the Audi 5000 Turbo to the Vanagon. It's important to measure end play on the transmission components before moving components. These components will get you the stronger planetary gears, but there are other parts that can convey to get you the +1 clutch packs. I haven't dug in that far yet.

I hope to post more photos soon. It's been frustrating to see the discussion of the Audi 5000 Turbo auto trans update on the Samba and yet discover that there's actually very little accurate information about what parts should be used and how to do the upgrade. I'm hoping to remedy that problem.

Stay tuned.

kourt

Tue Sep 01, 2015 4:34 pm

Staying tuned

Wed Sep 02, 2015 6:07 pm

First new parts are starting to arrive.

On the advice of AtlasShrugged in another post, I ordered the necessary pistons and band from http://wittrans.com on Sunday night. The parts arrived today (Wednesday night) from their Louisville warehouse.

This was just an initial order to see how the company does its business. I'm impressed by the competitive pricing and stocking of the VW auto transaxle parts--lots of folks don't carry pistons, or charge $75 for each one. The whole order (three pistons, one band) cost $33.

My next order will be friction rings, steels, and a seal kit. wittrans.com stocks the Raybestos frictions--recommended by many.

kourt

Wed Sep 02, 2015 8:01 pm

will there be a picture by picture account of the rebuild.
mrs rubbachicken requires an automatic transmission, when i find one, i'll at least need to reseal it, maybe tare it down.

and with respect folks, please keep the bickering to PM, there's a ton of useless irrelevant squabbling on these boards, it's hard enough going to search for information, made a lot harder having to read though squabbling.

Thu Sep 03, 2015 5:26 am

Yes, I hope to do a play-by-play photo account of a rebuild.

The difficulty in doing that is the fact that your hands are constantly soiled from working on the transmission, which makes it difficult to handle a camera.

I hope to do more exploration this weekend.

kourt

Thu Sep 03, 2015 6:59 am

Kourt this is a GREAT post and GREATER thread, but to make it the best if you could help to condense the information and toss us the part Numbers (VW and supplier) that would greatly improve others ability to source these parts..
I'm hoping to do a AT rebuild myself this winter by the glow of a propane heater..

kourt wrote: First new parts are starting to arrive.

On the advice of AtlasShrugged in another post, I ordered the necessary pistons and band from http://wittrans.com on Sunday night. The parts arrived today (Wednesday night) from their Louisville warehouse.

This was just an initial order to see how the company does its business. I'm impressed by the competitive pricing and stocking of the VW auto transaxle parts--lots of folks don't carry pistons, or charge $75 for each one. The whole order (three pistons, one band) cost $33.

My next order will be friction rings, steels, and a seal kit. wittrans.com stocks the Raybestos frictions--recommended by many.

kourt

Thu Sep 03, 2015 7:14 am

That's a good idea; here's the receipt from wittrans.com for the pistons and band for one transmission. These parts should be universal between the Audi and the VW automatic transmission (some exploration this weekend will confirm those assumptions).

kourt

Code:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-QUANTITY- PRODUCT CORE UNIT LINE
ORDER SHIP NUMBER DESCRIPTION PRICE PRICE TOTAL
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 1 N65022 BAND, 010,087,089,09, 11.93
1 1 A65965 PISTON, 010,087,089, 2.33
1 1 A65964 PISTON, 010,087,089, 5.15
1 1 A65962A PISTON, 010/087/089/ 13.65

Thu Sep 03, 2015 8:32 am

dang... i wish i could help.. id love to learn the rebuild process...
when are you looking to do it this weekend?

I could even be designated photo takerer