TheSamba.com :: View topic - Build me a type 1 engine that will go 250,000 miles

Fri Oct 03, 2008 6:55 pm

I keep hearing that a good vw engine will last 100,000 miles or so. In modern terms that is not very long. Even junk engines that the big three turn out often go over 200,000 with little effort and often poor maintenance. If you were in a contest to build the longest lived vw engine, which means no top end rebuild, only regular maintenance, what parts would be a must. I know having things balanced and counterweighted cranks are usual but there seems to be weaknesses that could be addressed because vw engines rarely last past 150,000. For a daily driver 100,000 miles can come fast. For some people in as little as a couple years.

This has to be possible. I'm a little disappointed in the lower standards we put a a "good" vw engine. The little 3 cylinder engine in my old Geo metro was supposed to be throw away engine an its lasted for 18 years and nearly 200,000 miles with no significant engine work.

I'd pay really good money for an engine that I knew would last over 200k.

Dave

Fri Oct 03, 2008 6:56 pm

It has to do with it being aircooled. It's the nature of the beast.

Fri Oct 03, 2008 7:00 pm

Glenn wrote: It has to do with it being aircooled. It's the nature of the beast.

Can you elaborate? What could be a done to improve the situation. I want to see and hear really smart people think out of the box on this.

Fri Oct 03, 2008 7:02 pm

Higher heat = more wear

Fri Oct 03, 2008 7:12 pm

danny6972 wrote: I keep hearing that a good vw engine will last 100,000 miles or so. In modern terms that is not very long. Even junk engines that the big three turn out often go over 200,000 with little effort and often poor maintenance. If you were in a contest to build the longest lived vw engine, which means no top end rebuild, only regular maintenance, what parts would be a must.
this would be your greatest challenge.... the exhaust valves in an aircooled engine are a wear item... higher heat does bad things to most metals..

Fri Oct 03, 2008 7:13 pm

Glenn wrote: Higher heat = more wear

Just increasing cooling must not be the answer because that could be addressed. Maybe we need better materials to make the parts out of so higher temps are not a problem. I think the guy in the "sticky" designing his own case is onto something. Lets get him to design the ultimate heads and jugs too.

Fri Oct 03, 2008 7:15 pm

bugninva wrote: danny6972 wrote: I keep hearing that a good vw engine will last 100,000 miles or so. In modern terms that is not very long. Even junk engines that the big three turn out often go over 200,000 with little effort and often poor maintenance. If you were in a contest to build the longest lived vw engine, which means no top end rebuild, only regular maintenance, what parts would be a must.
this would be your greatest challenge.... the exhaust valves in an aircooled engine are a wear item... higher heat does bad things to most metals..

I wonder if it would be possible to make a ceramic exhaust valve?

Fri Oct 03, 2008 7:15 pm

An original VW motor with proper care could go upwards of 200K, it all depends on the maintenance. They are great little wonders, the motor was designed in the 30's for christ sake, look at other car engines from the 30's through the 70's, you were lucky to get 60K out of them before they had to be opened up, and most modern engines are similar, at BMW, we don't have a new car sold today that will make it past 100K without major work, and 200K? Forget it. You want something like that in a new car, get a non turbo Subaru. My 2006 GLI goes to the dealer once a month for something it seems, soon as its out of warranty, its getting sold.

Fri Oct 03, 2008 7:18 pm

You can greatly increase the life by using LN Engineering's Nikasil™ cylinders.

http://www.lnengineering.com/type1.html

Got $3000 to spend on cylinders, pistons and hardware?

It's all about the money. (Isn't it always?)

Fri Oct 03, 2008 7:34 pm

fxnprsh wrote: , and most modern engines are similar, at BMW, we don't have a new car sold today that will make it past 100K without major work, and 200K? Forget it. .

off topic, i know... but the above is a damn shame.... i've had many 300k+ E30's.... hate that they've went that far down hill...

Fri Oct 03, 2008 7:34 pm

buy a diesel they last forever that way you don't have to worry about lasting
:twisted:

Fri Oct 03, 2008 8:06 pm

It is all about engineering the original. Slide rulers drawing boards as compared today with the powerful PC controlled machinery.

Fri Oct 03, 2008 8:29 pm

ive seen a 76 fuel injected bug go 150.000 it probebly would have gone 200.000 but it belong to my sister she was the non mantinace type. a carbed type1 with it leaking down srubbing the jugs maybe if you kept on top of the carb and never let the neddle and seat go bad. you could use coatings on everything valve stems pistons bearings and the final would be the proper injection and igntion system and some brad penn oil i think its very possible. just my two bits .jeff d.

Fri Oct 03, 2008 8:30 pm

jeff denham wrote: ive seen a 76 fuel injected bug go 150.000 it probebly would have gone 200.000 but it belong to my sister she was the non mantinace type. a carbed type1 with it leaking down srubbing the jugs maybe if you kept on top of the carb and never let the neddle and seat go bad. you could use coatings on everything valve stems pistons bearings and the final would be the proper injection and igntion system and some brad penn oil i think its very possible. just my two bits .jeff d.
Jeff... at what cost?

If it's double the price on a stock engine you can just buy a new engine and call it even.

Fri Oct 03, 2008 9:07 pm

mr 010 talked about price, when i talked to an engine builder about how fast i could go along with reliability, he said how much money do you want to spend! that was for a water cooled engine 100% applies more to an aircooled one!

Fri Oct 03, 2008 9:45 pm

200k, not possible.. :roll:

Fri Oct 03, 2008 9:55 pm

Buy a Porsche 356SC engine that was built by Harry Pellow. Maintain it, drive it well and it will last 200,000 miles in a beetle. A 356SC engine is the highst evolution of the 4 cylinder VW style motor. Of course you could buy 4 new 1600 DP crate motors for the price of 1 Maestro Built SC engine, if you could find one. Or Jake Raby could build a motor to go 200,000 if you had enough money and dove it right.

Fri Oct 03, 2008 9:59 pm

like i said before, how much are you willing to spend :roll:

Fri Oct 03, 2008 10:01 pm

My friend Kyle Madden (my65rhd on this site) put 150,000+ on his Jim Ratto built 2016 with only pulling the engine for clutch replacement. No top end maintenance. It leaked oil and smoked a little but still ran strong when he sold the car.

(78.4 x 90.5) 8.5:1
Demello crank
Scat C45 Cam
Straight Cut Cam Gears
Hemi Cut Heads ported with Stock Size Valves
Stock rockers with Berg shafts/adjusters
Dual 44 Webers with Berg linkage, 009, blue coil
Kennedy 1700lbs pressure plate
1 5/8" Phoenix merged header with a A-1 Turbo muffler

Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:02 pm

What are you gaining building a $8,000 engine that gets 250,000 miles when you can build 2 $4000 engines that get 125,000 miles. Besides the rest of the 40 year old Bug will not last another 250,000 miles.