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Sun Jun 07, 2015 10:19 pm

This issue has me completely stumped and frustrated. I'm going to abandon hope and take my bus to a shop this week unless someone can figure out what is going on. I don't even know what to try anymore. So..

Back story: In March I lost the ability to shift into reverse a few days before Meet in the Middle. All other gears worked well. The unanimous consensus among advice received was that a new transaxle was necessary. So I called Rancho Performance and placed an order. 8 weeks later my transaxle was ready. I was getting tired of avoiding tight parking spaces and was ready to install the new transaxle.

3 weeks ago I installed my new transaxle. While the engine and transaxle were out I decide to inspect the shifter linkage and replace any worn bushings. I replaced the front shifter bushing and the rear coupler bushings but the two shift rod bushings looked good. I also replaced the clutch, pressure plate and throw out bearing. It took a little work to get the stop plate adjusted but after a while I could shift into all gears (including reverse!) and took it for a little test drive. Shifting was good but not perfect so I drove home for a little adjusting. As I got home I noticed two things: There was a whining noise that went a way if I tapped the clutch pedal and then the clutch began to slip to the point of almost not functioning.

So engine out for the second time. And the problem seemed pretty obvious.

Like a fool I had used the cheapo throw out bearing clips that came with the Sachs clutch kit and not the springy originals. One of the cheap clips came loose and the throwout bearing was hanging from one clip. You can see the nicks in the bell housing from the clip getting bounced around.

So clip replaced. Engine in. Same thing only worse. Now the clutch doesn't seem to be functioning at all. I double check the cable adjustment per Bently and its right on but everytime I push the clutch pedal and try to select a gear with the engine running I get nothing but resistance and a whiny noise.

So I think maybe the clutch assembly was damaged by the cockeyed throw out bearing. So engine out for a third time and in goes another new clutch, pressure plate and throw out bearing. I'm very careful to install it exactly as specified in the Bently and the Tom Wilson book.

Engine back in fire it up. Same thing! Now I don't know what to do so after a little Samba searching I try replacing the bowden tube and the clutch cable which leads to this thread:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=629232

I have now had this engine out 4 times in 3 weeks and I don't know what else to do. I don't know if my problem is the clutch, the transaxle, the shift linkage or a combination. To sum up:

-Shifting is difficult with engine off but it is possible to find all four gears.
-Shifting with the engine running is impossible and if I try to shift with the clutch pedal engaged I get whining sound. NOT a grinding sound.

I have tried:
-New clutch
-New pressure plate
-New throwout bearing
-adjusting shifter stop plate
-New clutch cable
-New bowden tube
-adjusting clutch cable

Any questions or suggestions would be welcome. If I can't figure it out this week I'm taking it to a shop and I will let you know what their diagnosis is.

Sun Jun 07, 2015 11:24 pm

What condition is the pilot bearing located in the middle of your gland nut it? Can't tell much from your photos.

Your tranny input shaft looks like someone has cut the end off or something, so I presume we have some mismatched parts here that someone has tried to get to work together. Not sure that this would be a problem or not, it certainly would be if the shaft is still too long and were rubbing against the end of the bore in the gland nut.

Sun Jun 07, 2015 11:53 pm

do you have the right pressure plate? Yours has a ring. Was that standard in 1970? My 1971 did not have that. The TO usually comes with new retainers. Did yours not come with them? It looks like you have the old style but I don't know the cutoff year. Sorry I can't be more help on that.

Your Input shaft as Wildthings mentioned appears cut. It also appears to have mild wear on the end. Make sure you grease the gland nut pilot bearing and I would chamfer the end of the shaft so it has a little tiny rounding at the end. Less chance of damaging the pilot bearing putting it together.

Look at the end of these to see what I mean

Mon Jun 08, 2015 11:56 am

These guys beat me to it. First, that input shaft appears to have been cut like I did here once.

That's fine as long as they did it right. Place a sraight edge across the bell housing. Measure how far the input shaft sticks out beyong the mating surface. It should be 1 1/16".

As other have said. Look at the pilot bearing. I always put a dab of grease in there and also some on the end of the input shaft. That could be your noise.

From the looks of your input shaft I think your transmission builder let you down.

Mon Jun 08, 2015 12:20 pm

Welcome to the world of bus ownership.

Are you prepared to spend much of your life covered in grease and oil?

I can't see what transaxle you have, but the cut-off input shaft is for a 091 into an upright engine. For the life of me I don't see why people don't just change the input shaft, it only takes a few minutes of time.

Mon Jun 08, 2015 2:28 pm

Thanks for the replies! I appreciate the help.

Wildthings wrote: What condition is the pilot bearing located in the middle of your gland nut it? Can't tell much from your photos.

Your tranny input shaft looks like someone has cut the end off or something, so I presume we have some mismatched parts here that someone has tried to get to work together. Not sure that this would be a problem or not, it certainly would be if the shaft is still too long and were rubbing against the end of the bore in the gland nut.

I changed the gland nut and greased the pilot bearing when I had the engine out. Would a too long pilot bearing cause the symptoms I described?.

SG Kent wrote: do you have the right pressure plate? Yours has a ring. Was that standard in 1970? My 1971 did not have that. The TO usually comes with new retainers. Did yours not come with them? It looks like you have the old style but I don't know the cutoff year. Sorry I can't be more help on that.

1970 had the ring and the 71 did not. The TO did come with retainers but they sucked so I re used the old stock ones.

aeromech wrote: That's fine as long as they did it right. Place a sraight edge across the bell housing. Measure how far the input shaft sticks out beyong the mating surface. It should be 1 1/16".

As other have said. Look at the pilot bearing. I always put a dab of grease in there and also some on the end of the input shaft. That could be your noise.

From the looks of your input shaft I think your transmission builder let you down.

I will have to pull the engine again (sigh) to measure how far the input shaft sticks out beyond the housing but I'm sure its way more than 1 1/16" This transaxle was built by Rancho Performance. They are well recommended here but I guess they are not above mistakes.

Jeff Geisen wrote: Welcome to the world of bus ownership.

Are you prepared to spend much of your life covered in grease and oil?

Thanks. I've owned and worked on this bus for 9 years. I love grease and oil.

So is the consensus that I pull the engine again, measure the input shaft clearance and if found to exceed 1 1/16" as I suspect, call Rancho and complain?

Mon Jun 08, 2015 3:35 pm

In the "eliminate suspects while the engine is out...YET AGAIN :x " category I would suggest checking that the clutch disk glides freely on the input shaft splines.

Had a VW Rabbit PU once with sticky splines... drove me crazy tracking it down. Tranny in and out a half-dozen times... till I finally tried to mount just the disk on the splines and saw how bad it was binding.

Mon Jun 08, 2015 6:04 pm

Did you fill the tranny?
Clutch cable is good? Sometimes they break partly and still feel good.

Mon Jun 08, 2015 6:25 pm

time to make the call to Rancho and ask about the input shaft that was modified BEFORE the warranty expires.

If the input shaft fits inside the ''GLAND NUT"

I seriously do NOT think Rancho made a mistake on this modification.

Mon Jun 08, 2015 6:35 pm

mranker wrote: Thanks for the replies! I appreciate the help.

Wildthings wrote: What condition is the pilot bearing located in the middle of your gland nut it? Can't tell much from your photos.

Your tranny input shaft looks like someone has cut the end off or something, so I presume we have some mismatched parts here that someone has tried to get to work together. Not sure that this would be a problem or not, it certainly would be if the shaft is still too long and were rubbing against the end of the bore in the gland nut.

I changed the gland nut and greased the pilot bearing when I had the engine out. Would a too long pilot bearing cause the symptoms I described?.

I would be concerned that your input shaft is for some other application and that someone shortened it, but not quite enough and that it bottoms in the bore of the gland nut. The original input shaft is tapered on the end to help it enter into the clutch disc and pilot bearing, while yours appears to be sawn off with little in the way of a bevel or taper. Doing some careful measurements using a straight edge and tape measure should tell you if this is apt to be your problem or not.

Mon Jun 08, 2015 6:51 pm

old DKP driver wrote:

If the input shaft fits inside the ''GLAND NUT"

I'm not sure what this means. If the input shaft fits inside the gland nut then...what? Why is gland nut in quotes?

Wildthings wrote: I would be concerned that your input shaft is for some other application and that someone shortened it, but not quite enough and that it bottoms in the bore of the gland nut. The original input shaft is tapered on the end to help it enter into the clutch disc and pilot bearing, while yours appears to be sawn off with little in the way of a bevel or taper. Doing some careful measurements using a straight edge and tape measure should tell you if this is apt to be your problem or not.

Alright. Engine is coming out again tomorrow morning. I will report back with measurements and pics. On a scale of 1 to 10 how acceptable is a hacked input shaft on a brand new transaxle with a 1=total crap and a 10=no big deal? Keep in mind I waited 8 weeks and paid $800.

Mon Jun 08, 2015 7:00 pm

mranker wrote: Alright. Engine is coming out again tomorrow morning. I will report back with measurements and pics. On a scale of 1 to 10 how acceptable is a hacked input shaft on a brand new transaxle with a 1=total crap and a 10=no big deal? Keep in mind I waited 8 weeks and paid $800.

Most of the parts used in a rebuild are going to be used parts out of your old transmission or one similar to it. It is pretty frequent that a rebuilder fails to notice a modified part or doesn't realize that it will not work in the given application.

Mon Jun 08, 2015 7:22 pm

This pic shows the shaft I cut and that I put a bevel on the end. Not saying that's your problem but it does stand out as being weird. Mine was cut because I was installing a T1 engine into a T4 bus

I also like the idea of checking the splines with the disc

Mon Jun 08, 2015 10:55 pm

aeromech wrote:
I also like the idea of checking the splines with the disc

Every time.

This is a good practice; bashing the engine into the trans to mate them can grab a spline on the input shaft and make the clutch 100% impossible to slide back and forth. It needs to be able to slide (hence the mandatory spline grease a la Bentley) so it can free itself from the flywheel to allow the input shaft to change speeds and mesh gears. Because of this, every time I install an engine, I get the 4 bolts tight and go step on the clutch.

So Mike, are you familiar with how to shift the transaxle with soft-jaw vice-grips on the shift shaft? If you remove the shift coupler, can you shift the trans into gears by hand? (Think backwards of the shift knob: pushing the shaft back is 1st, forward is 2nd…) This is a good way to see if shifting issues are shifter mechanism related.

The "engine off" shift test being difficult tells me something is either messed up in your shift linkage or severely wrong internally.

Hoping for the first one,
Robbie

Tue Jun 09, 2015 8:21 am

OK engine out and the input shaft clears the mating surface of the transaxle by 9/16".

Also the clutch disk slides easily onto and off of the input shaft splines.

So that does not appear to be the issue. I did notice one other abnormality today and I don't know if it is relevant. Before engine removal this morning I tried shifting through the gears with the engine off and it was very difficult. I tried again with the engine out just to see and I noticed two things: Shifting was easier but the position of the gears had changed. First and Third gear were so far forward that the shift knob was hitting the dash board.

First gear:

Second gear:

Third gear:

Fourth gear:

Neutral:

With the engine in the positions of the gears are much further back. Wha?

Here are some not so great pics of the shift linkage.

Rear coupler:

Front coupler:

Shift rod front:

Any suggestions?

Tue Jun 09, 2015 8:56 am

are you supporting the transmission?

Tue Jun 09, 2015 8:57 am

With the engine installed, the transmission is supported at the rear. With the engine removed, no support. Have you made sure that the transmission is sitting at the proper level during your test?

Tue Jun 09, 2015 8:59 am

Your input shaft appears to be about 3/8 inch short. I have no idea if that's too short or what would happen if it was. You might contact Rancho and ask.

Tue Jun 09, 2015 11:44 am

SGKent wrote: are you supporting the transmission?

Yes. I have a floor jack and a jack stand under there

Tue Jun 09, 2015 12:01 pm

mranker wrote: SGKent wrote: are you supporting the transmission?

Yes. I have a floor jack and a jack stand under there

I do not know all the nuances of bus trans and engines as to shifter length but there are threads here discussing how different trans and years have different shift rod lengths. By chance did you change the type trans that came out of your bus - example, going from a 3 rib 002 to a 5 or 6 rib to get different gearing ratios?