TheSamba.com :: View topic - 1600 rebuilt w/ Freeway Flyer Transmission

Sun Jun 19, 2016 7:53 am

Hey VW BUDS ! Got a question.

I got a rebuilt 1600 duel port with Kadrons 40/44 (I rebuilt it myself) and she runs SWEET ! I put a FreeWay flyer transmission in my '60 bus prior to my previous engine blowing up (due to horrible rebuild job by a shop in Lenox MA) that's why I rebuilt myself, but that's another story.

Anyway . . here is the question, I get into 4th gear at 40 mph and at 55 MPH I'm running around 3,200 rpm . . seems a little high ? ! I have a tach on the engine and I was expecting a little more head room . . 2,200 - 2,500 rpms on the tach at 55 MPH plus.

Is this par for the course ?! I got an extractor and BugPak single quite pak as my exhaust setup. I have RGB's on the rear wheels . . and they are in tip top shape (I pulled the bearings and did a lube job on both) I'm not a big fan of lowing the bus and going tossing the RGB's. Should I advance my timing to get a lower RPM (I'm at 28 degress BTDC with a SVDA dizzy) would this help ? or is this what I should expect at higher MPH ? ! I have NO OTHER ISSUES as far as driving the bus . .she wants to go in all gears . . and has great compression numbers on all cylinders 120 and better.

Any thoughts . . suggestions . . tips !?

Thanks guys . .

B.Sparx

Sun Jun 19, 2016 8:12 am

?????? changing the tyming wont change the ratio. :cry: what trans gearing do you have?? they may of just gave you a .82 4th with a 412 r&p or a .93 4th with a 3:88 or.... best to find out just what you have and get what you need or use taller tires. but changing tyming will not change the rpm to mph spread. that's a mechanical set in stone until you change your stones thing.

Sun Jun 19, 2016 8:21 am

Good luck running a freeway flyer(3:88 ) with 1600 engine. Maybe the engine will be able to pull on flat ground but I guarantee you will have a hard time with any type of hill.

You want your RPM to be near 3,500 for cooling.

Sun Jun 19, 2016 4:07 pm

Thanks guys for the response !

Got to tell you . . the Bus has MAD power and hills are not a problem.
Just wondered if 3200 rpms @ 55 MPH was normal. I was under the assumption
that I would get a lot less RMPS in 4th gear and highspeed (freeway driving) would be a little more enjoyable.

As far as timing - I was just thinking maybe I was not advanced enough at 28 degrees BTDC and she was topping out sooner (With SVDA suggested timing at 32 - 34 degrees BTDC) I just threw that out there to see what the feedback would be.

I will check with Rick Wright and see what gear setup I got . . he's very responsive. I will just ask him and or pull up my invoice to see. Thanks for the tip ! !

B.Sparx

Sun Jun 19, 2016 4:17 pm

Only other way to tune your RPM at this point would be by using taller or shorter tires on the back. I would like to have a little more RPM for cooling in such a heavy car, but if you don't run hot I wouldn't worry. Only way to see if you are running hot is with oil temp and cylinder head temp gauges though.

As long as you aren't running hot I wouldn't worry about the exact RPMs as long as everything is working properly and cooling enough.

As far as timing, it won't do much anything for your speed. If you are lower compression you could bump up to 32° and as long as it doesn't ping you should be fine, might give slightly better performance and fuel mileage but I doubt you will notice a difference.

Sun Jun 19, 2016 4:28 pm

What exactly is a "freeway flier" transmission? I build vw transmissions every day and still have not figured it out. Example" your trans came stock with a 4.12 r/p and a .82 fourth, and you paid for what?

Sun Jun 19, 2016 5:48 pm

The company that started the "Freeway Flier" went bankrupt and the owner left the country to avoid jail.

Sun Jun 19, 2016 6:16 pm

good one lol lol. in the 1970s and 1980s I made a lot of side money replacing the 388 trans. with a 4.125 trans . heres a surprise I cant be live the guy did it. he put a 388 trans in his 1962 bug. with a used 40hp motor . no big deal. but it keeps jumping out of 3rd and 4th gear. hes on his 3rd 388 rebuilt trans and every one has jumped out of 3rd and 4th gear each 388 trans was different . he even un hooked the shift rod from the trans and it still jumped out of 3rd and 4th gear .the 3rd trans came out of a running bug with a 1600cc stock motor and never jumped out of any gear. I told him to put the 433 trans back in I thought I saw every thing but this one has me . spencerfvee vwracerdave wrote: The company that started the "Freeway Flier" went bankrupt and the owner left the country to avoid jail.

Sun Jun 19, 2016 6:18 pm

when I need a "freeway flyer" I just put on some 28" tall tires...

If I'm heading through the mountains, I drop to some 24"...

quick change gears :wink:

Mon Jun 20, 2016 1:01 am

vwinnovator wrote: when I need a "freeway flyer" I just put on some 28" tall tires...

If I'm heading through the mountains, I drop to some 24"...

quick change gears :wink:

Early bug trans ratios got you down?

All the cool kids spinning less RPM's than you on the freeway?

Are you tired of that 1600 sounding ready to fly apart on the freeway just keeping up with all the beat up Civics?

Time for some Rubber Rake™

Go buy yourself some 205/70 or 205/75 tires and throw them on the rear. Gives you the look of big'n'littles, and will handle like a spanked granny.

no longer will you have to put up with all the popular kids and their "freeway flyers" and you will look way cooler. you can even buy the tires with the 3/4" white wall for even more female attention.

Mon Jun 20, 2016 9:57 am

I suspect the shop selling a "Freeway Flyer" for use in a 1600 bus was right not to move the ratios too far from stock, or the 1600 would die pretty fast again from lugging it around with low rpm and low cooling at 55.

Also going too far with the ratios and you will just end up slower than with stock and chugging along with a rapidly heating engine ...

Mon Jun 20, 2016 1:29 pm

Freeway Flyers are used by a lot of T-4 guys. I have one. They have the Torque for the hills and in light bugs or Ghia's drop the RPM's in the 65 to 75 mph highway cruising speeds.

If you think about it, and if I remember correctly the 72 and later T-1s had a slightly taller top gear. Was it do to the fact those engines had the highest stock hp of 60hp and did not need the lower gearing for hill ???

Mon Jun 20, 2016 4:33 pm

Thanks guys for the response !

I got Dunlop P205/75 R15 Tiers on the bus already and I got Head Temp, Oil Temp and a Tach up on the dash. My head temps and Oil temps are way within
normal operating temp (heads are at 250 - 275 degrees and oil temp is at 180 approx. (give and take 10 - 15 degrees)

As far as the Transmission, its a Freeway Flyer from "Wright Gearbox" with a
with a 388 Ring & Pinion (suggested for bus by Rick). Look to be clear . . I got no gripe with the Tranny . . it works great and Rick Wright has been a joy to work with and has put up with numerous calls from me regarding install questions and what not.

My only concern is on flat ground . . doing 55 MPH should I be at 3,200 - 3,500 rpms . . or is there something wrong ? ! Thought I would get a "little less rev" out of the 1600 with a F-Flyer and not have as much "top end" going on as I cruise down the highway.

No other issues to speak of . . I guess what some of you are saying is, at that speed I need that fan spinning at 3,000 rpms or more to keep the engine from burning up. Less then 3,000 is going to give me higher head temps ?! Correct ?

B.Sparx

Mon Jun 20, 2016 5:07 pm

Do you know what 3rd and 4th gears were used with the 3.88?

Mon Jun 20, 2016 5:27 pm

Esde,
I did not know that, explain.

Mon Jun 20, 2016 6:10 pm

nextgen wrote: Freeway Flyers are used by a lot of T-4 guys. I have one. They have the Torque for the hills and in light bugs or Ghia's drop the RPM's in the 65 to 75 mph highway cruising speeds.

If you think about it, and if I remember correctly the 72 and later T-1s had a slightly taller top gear. Was it do to the fact those engines had the highest stock hp of 60hp and did not need the lower gearing for hill ???

72 and later t-1's did NOT have a taller top gear, Pretty much the same as a stock 4.12 r/p trans, example: 4.125 r/p X .89 fourth gear=3.67 final drive'

: 3.88 x .94= 3.65 final drive.... see? Pretty much the same

Mon Jun 20, 2016 6:45 pm

Yes the name "Freeway Flyer" is a marketing term but its basically lowering rpm via different ratio combinations to allow higher (freeway) speeds than designed from the factory.

67-79 pretty much had the same final drive, and the only way to get more out of them was to add a different 4th gear (.82 to the 4.12 or .89 to the 3.88 ).

For 6 volt cars a installing a later trans with 4.12 r&p or a .82 4th with factory 4.37 would lower rpm at highway speeds

For a bus it depended on the year. Only in 64 was a 4.12 with .82 used from the factory, before and after the 4.37 was used (small nut 63 and earlier and big nut 64-67).

with the availability of 3.44 R&P even more combinations are available.

Its been my experience that at least 100hp is needed to pull taller ratios than VW used in late model transmissions, and in order to compensate for the lower fan speed with taller ratios a Porsche 356 alternator pulley is required.

As mentioned fine tuning of ratios can be accomplished with larger or smaller tires.

Mon Jun 20, 2016 7:23 pm

Forgot to mention that most rebuilders today use Type I cores so the chance of you having ACTUAL type II 3rd and 4th gears is very low.

With the OP running 55 at 3200 looks like he has typical type I gearing.

Mon Jun 20, 2016 7:28 pm

nextgen wrote: Esde,
I did not know that, explain.
As other people have noted, "freeway flyer" is just a buzzword or general term for a trans that has some gearing higher than stock. It could be a higher Ring and pinion, or 4th gear, or both. I have had a few different types, with a few different engines.
When I had the 1835, probably 100 or so HP, I had a 3.88, and stock 1st through 4th gears, a .89 4th gear. Very drivable, maybe even with a 1600.
Later, I ended up with a 4.12 ring and pinion, and the stock 4th gear replaced with a .82 bus fourth. It was a pain in the ass to drive, as I had to wind 3rd out, or else when shifting to 4th the rpms would be too low and it would lug along. I think the engine had just enough power to handle the gear, in a beetle, but never could have in a bus. For sure, as expected, at 55 cylinder head temps were higher than normal because of the engine speed. At 75 it was fine..
So, to really discuss your ride with any accuracy, you need to know what the gears are.

Mon Jun 20, 2016 7:35 pm

AlteWagen wrote: Forgot to mention that most rebuilders today use Type I cores so the chance of you having ACTUAL type II 3rd and 4th gears is very low.

With the OP running 55 at 3200 looks like he has typical type I gearing.

Yes, the 002 coarse spline gears are getting top dollar. People hoard them, but I think it's the only way to put a .82 fourth into a type 1 box with splined shafts