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Wed Jul 13, 2016 9:10 pm

The Samba search function has answered nearly all my questions, but one topic that I can't seem to form a conclusion on are lifters. So, I guess my first post will be about them.

I'm in the midst of building a 1600 DP with some good used parts from my old engine and some other pieces I've picked up. My cam selection seems to be leaning towards the CB 2280 "cheater cam" (because I only have an H30/31 carb) but other suggestions are appreciated.

So, since I have an order through CB, and potentially one of their cams, I'm told it's best to use matching brands (but in some cases not necessary) and CB has 3 lifters available for my engine. They have the lightweights, the bigfoots, and another just called "VW Valve Lifters" or "CB 1512". Since I'm on a relatively tight budget, the 100 dollar lightweights aren't really an option, leaving just the bigfoots and the 1512 lifters. I've heard good things about the bigfoots, but I'm also curious about the 1512 lifters, as I've heard nothing about them. They're 10 dollars less than the bigfoots and I would think they weigh a little less, which is a bonus if that's true. I'm not trying to cut corners, but I'm also trying my best to keep costs down and every little bit helps. :D

Wed Jul 13, 2016 9:21 pm

The 90hp CB engine kit (which uses the same cam profile) includes lightweight lifters.

To be honest, the engle lifters are what I would use to save a buck.
I'll be sent to hell for mixing brands (but it'll work great) :wink:

Wed Jul 13, 2016 9:31 pm

I was looking at the Engles a while back, but I kept finding mixed reviews. Also, I keep finding Engle lifters for about 60 bucks (both at Cip1 and AC.net) where as the CB bigfoots are around 33 dollars and the 1512 lifters are 23 dollars respectively. Also, the benefit would be ordering everything from one place so that would cut down on shipping, and I hate paying for shipping. :lol:

Wed Jul 13, 2016 10:14 pm

I'd do the Bigfoot (Brazil risolence something). I've been using them on ep12 cam blanks up to w120 cams and dual valve springs successfully. They have good reviews because they are tried and true.

Wed Jul 13, 2016 10:42 pm

Engle lifters, and CB lightweight lifters are made in USA

Buy american :D

You want opinions you'll get them. Far as material, the bigfoot are harder than stock but not as hard as engle or cb lightweight. They are in-between. I think you will be ok with them, if you stick to lifter friendly oil.
The cheater cam is a "mild cam" but if you look at it you'll see the nose radius is rather tight, it's more "pointy" than any engle 100 or110 you'll ever see, and that's something to....consider

Wed Jul 13, 2016 11:26 pm

I'll buy lightweights any day of the week and twice on Sunday If they were open. The engle's have ( or previously had) thick tops that would've forced me to have it turned down to give me the cam to lifter clearance. So more cost. So thats kind of why i wont use them. If theyve changed, maybe i would reconsider.
Cb ships uses priority, even though they use the flat rate, somehow it's always more than the flat rate. Nevertheless, it's still cheaper than socal who only uses UPS. Paying 25 bucks to ship something that can technically fit in a small 7$ flat rate box doesn't sit well with me. To be perfectly honest, I'd rather use an empi or mahle lifter on low lift, mild cams. Their crown thickness are workable.

Wed Jul 13, 2016 11:35 pm

modok wrote: Engle lifters, and CB lightweight lifters are made in USA

Buy american :D

You want opinions you'll get them. Far as material, the bigfoot are harder than stock but not as hard as engle or cb lightweight. They are in-between. I think you will be ok with them, if you stick to lifter friendly oil.
The cheater cam is a "mild cam" but if you look at it you'll see the nose radius is rather tight, it's more "pointy" than any engle 100 or110 you'll ever see, and that's something to....consider

You actually pointed out something else I was wondering about. I was wanting a cam with less aggressive ramp and less peaky because the case I got was in remarkable condition (just needed the dirt dobber nests cleaned out of the oil galleries, which took hours with bore brushes. The bastards used the finest of Louisiana clay in there.) and I don't want a cam that ruins the lifter bores with crazy aggressive ramp angles. I'm only looking to run single HD springs because the carb will choke out the engine before it could ever rev high enough to warrant dual springs, but I want any protection against valve float or coil bind or whatever a stock spring potentially couldn't handle. (or maybe I'm just paranoid)

And on the topic of valve float, how heavy are Engle lifters and Bigfoot lifters? I was told both are pretty chunky.

As for oil I use VR-1 (originally 20w-50, but I'm switching to 10w-30) and will be installing a full flow system with pretty black AN lines and fittings.

Thu Jul 14, 2016 2:10 am

I rather like the CB cheater cam, and i think it will be fine with single springs and heavy lifters, if shifting at 5000rpm, probably lower. If you were going to put a turbo on there and try to turn 6k then might want to re-consider, but your not....right? It'll work.
I don't think it has enough lift to have interference with the thick headed lifters but it should be checked at least.

IMO, cams and lifters wearing rapidly makes far more friction and force than if they are happily mated, and the friction wears lifter bores.
I lot of the worse cases of lifter bore wear were not radical engines but more like GEX specials with reground cams :shock:

Thu Jul 14, 2016 6:45 am

I have used the Bigfoot lifters with stock reground german cams, brand new brazil cams, engle cams, cb cams, webcams......any cam you can think of. NEVER had even one problem.

Thu Jul 14, 2016 7:44 am

These are 28mm Riosulence lifters. The same brand as the Bigfoot lifters. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1855849 I've broken in several engines successfully WITH CWC EP-12 BILLETS, like the ones you're proposing to use. Another good and cheap brand are the IAP Moresa lifters in the blue blister pack with pictures of different kinds of VWs on the cardboard. They cost $35-$40. Again, these are only with the CWC EP-12 billet. I don't know how they work with others.

Thu Jul 14, 2016 7:49 am

Maticus wrote: modok wrote: Engle lifters, and CB lightweight lifters are made in USA

Buy american :D

You want opinions you'll get them. Far as material, the bigfoot are harder than stock but not as hard as engle or cb lightweight. They are in-between. I think you will be ok with them, if you stick to lifter friendly oil.
The cheater cam is a "mild cam" but if you look at it you'll see the nose radius is rather tight, it's more "pointy" than any engle 100 or110 you'll ever see, and that's something to....consider

You actually pointed out something else I was wondering about. I was wanting a cam with less aggressive ramp and less peaky because the case I got was in remarkable condition (just needed the dirt dobber nests cleaned out of the oil galleries, which took hours with bore brushes. The bastards used the finest of Louisiana clay in there.) and I don't want a cam that ruins the lifter bores with crazy aggressive ramp angles. I'm only looking to run single HD springs because the carb will choke out the engine before it could ever rev high enough to warrant dual springs, but I want any protection against valve float or coil bind or whatever a stock spring potentially couldn't handle. (or maybe I'm just paranoid)

And on the topic of valve float, how heavy are Engle lifters and Bigfoot lifters? I was told both are pretty chunky.

As for oil I use VR-1 (originally 20w-50, but I'm switching to 10w-30) and will be installing a full flow system with pretty black AN lines and fittings.

Never weighed the Bigfoots. Engles weigh all over the place. The heaviest one I weighed was 109 grams! Moresas are 96-97g, Riosulences are the same.

I'd personally use stock springs and really light lifters, pushrods, and maybe retainers to avoid using HD springs with that cam, but that's me...

Thu Jul 14, 2016 9:06 am

I'll guess I'll just stick with the bigfoots after all, but it is nice knowing there other inexpensive lifters out there that are good quality.

Another thing I'm having questions about are solid rocker shafts. I was going to get the CB ones, but they're out of stock at the moment. I also found there a two types of solid shafts, ones with floating centers (like CBs) and ones with solid centers (like these http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=C13-21-2309) and I was wanting some more experienced opinions on them or suggestions regarding them.

As for cam and spring selection, when I called up CB they said I didn't necessarily need HD springs with the cheater, but some others around here suggested them for safe insurance (as well as matching retainers). If I did use HD singles, could I use my stock pushrods? I've seen some debate about that, some saying they'll bend like playdoh, others stating they've had HD singles with with stock pushrods for X amount of years in their cars with little issue.

This is my daily driver that I occasionally drive back and forth from where I go to school and to back home. It's about an hour drive with some slight hills. I kinda need this motor done in a month, but done right. Both for the fact I need to get around and that I really miss driving it. She isn't the fastest car ever, but she does put a big smile on my face, most of the time.

Somewhat unimportant but still a curiosity. Would the upgrade to even a decent mild cam make for a somewhat nicer exhaust note? I don't have a radio (weight reduction bro) or any sound deadening (that hour drive really sucks guys) and the only "station" I get is a howling fan, valvertrain noise, and a cheapo 4-1 header, so any improvement is nice. :D

Thu Jul 14, 2016 9:48 am

If you want it done right, you're going to need more than one month. Lotsa fitting/inspecting/measuring/disassembly/reassembly/sanding/clearancing/cursing....

IMO, it's silly to use a Bigfoot for such a low-lift cam. Their standard version is the same material and is lighter.

Thu Jul 14, 2016 10:59 am

I just got off the phone with CB after talking to David about lifters. First off, David was immensely helpful and nice, excellent customer service. :D He also answered me about the "mystery" 1512 lifters which are in fact the same brand as the bigfoots (Brazilian risolence) but are just 28mm faces instead of 31mm. He mentioned that the bigfoots were excessive for the modest lift of the cheater cam and i was thinking the same myself, but it's nice to have reassurance.

Sooo, opinions on stock pushrods with single HDs? :?

Thu Jul 14, 2016 11:40 am

Good to know the 1512s are std Riosulences!

Thu Jul 14, 2016 11:44 am

I run the bigfoots from CB with a cheater cam and....... Stock springs.

I don't turn that motor above 5100 rpm though, and regulary shift into 4th gear from 3rd at about 4k.....

No funny noises, everything seems fine, no shavings, no irregularities during valve aejustment time. 12k miles on motor since november. (I think it was november)

Good luck

-Frank

Thu Jul 14, 2016 1:13 pm

Frank Bassman wrote: I run the bigfoots from CB with a cheater cam and....... Stock springs.

I don't turn that motor above 5100 rpm though, and regulary shift into 4th gear from 3rd at about 4k.....

No funny noises, everything seems fine, no shavings, no irregularities during valve aejustment time. 12k miles on motor since november. (I think it was november)

Good luck

-Frank

Nice to know Frank. Did you feel the cam made a difference over the stock cam or was it hardly noticeable? Also, do you have stock rocker shafts or did you upgrade to solid shafts? When I was talking to David he suggested solid shafts even on stock applications. I see why he would suggest that, as even I've experienced a few issues with a completely stock system and stock wavy washers and pins. I never had a breakage, but I could see they were pretty weak. He also suggested swivel feet and noted they were much quieter and easier on the valve stems, but that's another topic.

Thu Jul 14, 2016 2:10 pm

If you'll be upgrading to elephant adjusters, the stock pushrods will likely be too long, unless you cut down your rockers for proper geometry. With high revving springs, the safe bet might be to upgrade to HD aluminum pushrods.

I build all my engines with solid shafts and elephant adjusters. A lot of stock adjusters tend to mushroom or damage the valve stem over time. A flat on flat surface seems best.

The CB 2280 is nice. It allows for more compression (8.0:1 range on 91 octane). To just install it without bumping up the compression will not give you much gain. Run your deck around .040" and modify the chamber to get the compression you need.

Thu Jul 14, 2016 4:00 pm

Well I run the stock VW rockers with the "weak" spring clips and stuff... But I don't abuse the motor. All I did was get new adjusters from CB. I check the valves every oil change (3k miles) and have not found anything out of the ordinary. Yea, I guess I am a bit obsessive with maintenance. I barely ever have to touch the adjustment though.

There was SOME increase in power, but this isn't a rocket by any means. It's also slightly bigger than stock. (1700 cc)

It does well, yes a difference from stock cam, but my carb does choke it a bit. (Modified 34 pict). Next week this should change though, as I am converting to dual carbs. (Modified pdsit's from CB, LOL a post on my findings for them is in the works.)

Cam runs plenty quiet (I do have a glasspack exhaust though... I may be going deaf at an early age)

For small displacements this is the cam. Idles smooth too, you don't have to worry about a temperamental lumpy idle.

This is a driver right?

-Frank

Thu Jul 14, 2016 5:15 pm

I've never understood the use of the bigfoot lifters. What do they do but add weight to the lifter. Isn't it supposed to be the other way around, and make the lifter as light as possible?

Stock lifters do a fine job, and follow any profile. The only improvement I've ever seen is the little trick of connecting the two oil groves which can be done with a Dremel tool.