TheSamba.com :: View topic - Performance Cylinders Nickies vs Pauter vs Autocraft

Tue Nov 01, 2016 11:32 am

ok samba in the market for a set of quality cylinders already heading towards the pauter area.Thing is i keep hearing that nickies are the best period.

If they wern't then porsche would not be using them and they stress their motors way more than a vw.

pauter brand second to none strong never hear them exploding.

autocraft like pauter being around for a long time proven.

are NICKIES just a thing for type 4 motor and guys who feel better about themselves spending 3500 dollars on just a set of CYLINDERS no pistons rings pis etc.

or do they actually make use of that 3500 dollars spent on a set of cylinders.

I would love to have jake raby chime in a explain how a 3500 set of NICKIES cylinders is TOTALLY SUPERIOR TO 4 SETS of PAUTER CYLINDERS because that in cost is what it is equal to

would love to hear that they are stronger cool fasterwarp less and can take abuse.

if they cant handle it. Can some one explain how a set of cyl cost 3500 and why it is worth and the PREMISE behind it all

Tue Nov 01, 2016 11:52 am

58ragman wrote: ok samba in the market for a set of quality cylinders already heading towards the pauter area.Thing is i keep hearing that nickies are the best period.

If they wern't then porsche would not be using them and they stress their motors way more than a vw.

pauter brand second to none strong never hear them exploding.

autocraft like pauter being around for a long time proven.

are NICKIES just a thing for type 4 motor and guys who feel better about themselves spending 3500 dollars on just a set of CYLINDERS no pistons rings pis etc.

or do they actually make use of that 3500 dollars spent on a set of cylinders.

I would love to have jake raby chime in a explain how a 3500 set of NICKIES cylinders is TOTALLY SUPERIOR TO 4 SETS of PAUTER CYLINDERS because that in cost is what it is equal to

would love to hear that they are stronger cool fasterwarp less and can take abuse.

if they cant handle it. Can some one explain how a set of cyl cost 3500 and why it is worth and the PREMISE behind it all

Looking on L&N engineering's site...that $3500 is for application specific cylinders and matched JE pistons with rings and pins.

There is plenty of info on the L&N site and on Jakes original threads on the STF as to what these are all about. Ray

Tue Nov 01, 2016 12:10 pm

"Best" is an opinion, You have to tell us exactly what your needs are and be very honest. The cylinders have different strengths. Nikasil runs cool and is a very long lasting hard coating that resists wear; hence why it's used in every motocross racing bike engine made for decades. It's not reasonable to re-hone. If you plan to own and drive your car for another 400,000 miles I say go for those. If you are into drag racing in sand or asphalt with a turbo and nitrous yet you tear down your engine frequently (Weekly or monthly) to hone/re-ring and re-bearing for the next race then Autocraft or Pauter; Take your pick. If you are running normally aspirated or reasonably turboed then AA, Century or Mahle are excellent and dirt cheap compared to the others.
Also keep in mind your application when it comes to cooling. If you are on the street then the three basic ones above are all you need. The price does not add power unless you found your application was warping the cylinders and losing compression.

Tue Nov 01, 2016 12:35 pm

thanks for the head up yamaducci.This was more of a killer street car.I did the research talked to raby and he said he could not talk to me cause he charge 350 and hour to discuss to differences of the cylinders.

I went to LN to check it out and they just describe the process and the different types of aluminum cylimders they do not go into the differences of ductile iron cast alumium and nickies they just claim they are better so i needed some in put and i got what i needed thanks

Tue Nov 01, 2016 12:43 pm

Great. Check out my build and if you have any questions let me know. There are lots of ways to go on "Killer".

Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:40 pm

Might LA cylunders be another route? Also, can hit up stripped for the thick wall 94s he sources.

Tue Nov 01, 2016 5:57 pm

Here's my take on cylinders:

You can paint cylinders with the cheapest spray paint you can find, and they never get hot enough to burn the paint off.

I've burned paint of my brake drums for hells sake.

Nickies for cylinders? Waste of money for 99% of us. We don't have excess cylinder heat to shed, at least not in any amount that matters. Cylinder head heat, now that's a different story.

I'm running Pauter on my two drag cars. I've split enough Mahle and AA cylinders to be done with them. I'm pushing over the 450 HP mark with them though. Before when I was under 350 HP, Mahle and AA cylinders worked fine.

A set of Pauters cost me just shy of $900. If you aren't pushing the big HP, stick with regular cylinders and save yourself the cash for other areas of the car/engine IMHO.

Tue Nov 01, 2016 6:04 pm

I know almost nothing about brain surgery but I will talk to you about it for $350 an hour. I do plan on using sleeved aluminum cylinders for my 2393&probably my 2332. Ill probabkly also be the one making them.

Tue Nov 01, 2016 6:16 pm

58ragman wrote: thanks for the head up yamaducci.This was more of a killer street car.I did the research talked to raby and he said he could not talk to me cause he charge 350 and hour to discuss to differences of the cylinders.

I went to LN to check it out and they just describe the process and the different types of aluminum cylimders they do not go into the differences of ductile iron cast alumium and nickies they just claim they are better so i needed some in put and i got what i needed thanks

Wow! This pompass ass hole wont even talk for under 300 bucks an hour?

Tue Nov 01, 2016 6:56 pm

thanks again guys for all the straight up answers ,I love it when i need a real deal answer and i get it from the pros.

here is what jake told me

Stacey,
I have copied Nicole from LN Engineering on this email. She can give you all the details free of charge.

My consultation is 350.00 per hour, with a one hour minimum.

Jake Raby
Founder, President
Raby Engine Development
IMS Solution Inventor
US Patents 8,992,089 & 9,416,697

Tue Nov 01, 2016 7:01 pm

jake says vw drag racers dont know jack bout setting up cylinders and nickies are indeed the best period.

I e yet to see a drag race engine builder use Nickies the right way. They set them up with the same mindset as iron cylinders, and that doesn't work.

Jake Raby.

wow big words and im not big enough to speak in this arena

Tue Nov 01, 2016 7:36 pm

Let's get something straight:

I was asked about a product that I have assisted in the development of for the past 17 years. I used the very first set of LN Engineering Nickies, and that set is still alive in my 220HP engine in my 356. Those same cylinders have been in 4 different engines and have logged over 100k since they were plated.

I have/ had/ will not have anything to sell to the original poster in this thread. I do not sell parts, and have not since 2012.

So, why was I even contacted? For no reason, that's why. I tried to do the nice thing, and copy someone at LN that could provide the information that the original poster was looking for. That wasn't good enough.

Sorry, no free lunches here. If you want what I have learned, then you will pay for it. My consultation fee has been the same for over a decade, and it could stand to increase.

Now, if this is about posting snippets of emails that people want to share, I'd be happy to post the reply from the original poster that was completely out of context and disrespectful to LN Engineering following the original poster's "research" that Nickies cylinders only made engines run cooler and last longer, deeming them "JUNK" to him.

That's gotta be the first time ever where something decreasing temperature while increasing longevity wasn't appreciated.

This person was looking for free information, and had no intention of being our customer. He is owed nothing by my organization, or by me. Period.

Tue Nov 01, 2016 7:38 pm

58ragman,

Are you looking for cylinders for a Type 1 engine?

JPM carries some quality cylinders that stay round in high performance Type 1 engines. I have a few JPM products on my street-strip engine and they are top quality products with the research to back them up.

http://en.jpmotorsports.se/ms/ms/j-p-motorsport-ab-products-helsingborg-254-68/ms-90001226-p-5/#JPM Cylinder

Export price to North America would be approximately 80% of the list price, which would be ~$715.00 USD for a set of four.

They also list a billet cylinder as well.

Tue Nov 01, 2016 9:04 pm

I've asked. Jpm's billets are plus 1k. If you're in this area and realm of car/engine racing, something of this caliber is automatic.

Eric already gave you a capability range of shelf cylinders. And honestly I didn't think they would last post 300. But nice tidbit of info for me to lock away.

Tue Nov 01, 2016 9:30 pm

So you want to know why all the expensive high perfomance engines have nicasil? hmmm,
Benefits of an aluminum cylinder:
-moves heat from piston better
-moves heat from head better
-tighter clearance is possible, because now piston and cylinder are same material, no need for HUGE cold clearance to have OK hot clearance.

Nicasil plating has been proving the best way to make it work. Other methods have been tried and used too of course, but I'm glad to leave them behind, chrome and high silicon especially, although I kinda liked the carbon/aluminum oxide composite cylinders in the honda s2000, personally, but nobody even knows what that cost them to make, I don't really want to know.

There isn't really a benefit or downside to using ductile iron in this app from what I can see, but, if you are going to produce a cylinder in that way.... might as well. Machining the cylinder outside and in for a truly uniform wall thickness and minimal reliefs for the studs is certainly a good idea.

Wed Nov 02, 2016 3:06 am

I have had Motocross cylinder's done by
U.S. Chrome in Wisconsin ,,replated cyl. for me for years ,,wonder if they will do VW's????? ,Cheers,Madmike

Wed Nov 02, 2016 10:37 am

Eaallred wrote:

I'm running Pauter on my two drag cars. I've split enough Mahle and AA cylinders to be done with them. I'm pushing over the 450 HP mark with them though. Before when I was under 350 HP, Mahle and AA cylinders worked fine.

Thank you for those useful data points - I was kinda sweating the 88mm thickwall AAs I bought for my new street turbo motor...

Wed Nov 02, 2016 2:59 pm

madmike wrote: I have had Motocross cylinder's done by
U.S. Chrome in Wisconsin ,,replated cyl. for me for years ,,wonder if they will do VW's????? ,Cheers,Madmike thats who I was going to contact about doin it if I went that way. thereare a few places that do that stuff.might be more than that.

Tue Nov 08, 2016 8:24 pm

Cylinders are not really to hard to fabricate. here is one of the cylinders I made for a 2332cc engine . have 2 more to go yet. they are for aviation use. up to about 75 continuous HP the stock 2332 engine cooled pretty good with a modified cooling system.
75 to 100HP the CHT would slowly climb.from 350 up to 400+ Degrees. the out going air was not hot, just warm. there just is not enough thermal mass to dissipate the heat.as the cylinder bore gets bigger the cooling fin area gets smaller.running the mofoco heads did gain me another 10 hp in cooling.
DAS
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=1573849
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=1573848

Wed Nov 09, 2016 9:06 am

I think tapering the fins and more gap/space between them would help( about1.5~ 2x what you have there). you may also need to taper the finnage toward the case end so the lower portion of the cylinder does not cool too much as the heat is made in the head end of the cylinder..very similuar to the shape cast iron cylinders. other than that good work.