TheSamba.com :: View topic - What are the symptoms of a bad Steering wheel damper !

Sat Apr 29, 2017 3:54 pm

Did not get the ball joints checked, the guy was too busy, but he said, check your damper.
I know the violent shimmy thing but what else.

Sat Apr 29, 2017 4:06 pm

You could hit a pothole, and it could violently jerk the steering wheel to one side or the other. They are cheap, and easy to install.

Sat Apr 29, 2017 4:07 pm

Unhook one end and cycle it through its stroke, if it resists evenly then it's probably ok, if there's no resistance then it's probably not

Sat Apr 29, 2017 4:07 pm

Little bumps and waves the the road makes the steering wheel jolt and want to pull out of your hand a lot more suddenly, especially while on the brakes. The damper is more for your comfort. the steering wheel suddenly jolting is annoying, but nothing more, as the cars is so light it's not going to rip my arms off.........but on a big truck it might :shock:

I don't run a damper, but it is a 1960 model so it didn't have one, although I have a 62 beam so I could put one on. Didn't have a lot of things in november 1959

You have a super right?
They have all kinds of wander when the sway bar bushings get loose, but it could be any part in the system, even a wheel bearing or one of the pitman arms. Good alignment shop should be able to tell you what parts are wobbly and what aren't.

It can be hard to see. My brother had a problem for a long time in his truck. he could not nail down. I put the truck on jack stands, took the wheels off, and welded a six foot long tube to a junk wheel. Put the junk wheel on, and wiggled the long lever and we see the ball joint is wobbly in it's arm. The tapered part was loose :shock: The nut was tight but the hole was an oval underneath.

Sat Apr 29, 2017 5:22 pm

As stated they are inexpensive and take only about 30 minutes to swap out. Every one I've ever pulled off was completely shot. It seems like they never get changed out for some reason. The car will feel 100% more "stable" with a fresh one, unless you have a bunch of slop in the other parts. If in doubt, swap it out.

Sat Apr 29, 2017 8:38 pm

Modok, my car is a standard 73 that I put early fender on to get the nicer looking early headlight so I could use the 56 Porsche Grilles.

You discription of my problem seems like the damper. Funny how we sometimes jump to the more expensive, biggest hassle parts first.

The damper is original. I have a new damper in my garage for years which I forgot about.

I remember back in the early 70's I had a Bug and if I hit a bump at a certain speed the steering wheel would go from side to side violently. Until I slowed down and it would stop instantly.

I remembered that vividly but never experienced any other symptoms. I played with the steering box,thinking that could be the problem, but always it feels fine, but out of the blue it would get a mind of its own and pulls to one side.
After all these years now I have to find that damper and test. It is in it original box. Has to be at let 35 year in my garage.

Sat Apr 29, 2017 9:16 pm

Ok I found the damper from the original box. I put it in my vice and it has resistance full length and operates smooth except when fully extended at the very end like the last inch, it jerks a bit .

Is that normal or should it pull smoothly full length with resistance?

Sat Apr 29, 2017 9:29 pm

I'm not really sure how they work internally, but far as i know, that's probably just fine.

Getting the "death wobble" pretty common with loose kingpins (or similar) on older designs.
A dampener would be good to have but the root cause is some critical part just plain LOOSE :shock:

Sun Apr 30, 2017 2:46 am

Death wobble on a 1303? For me it was the ball-joints on the intermediate arm, the one that links the steering box and the tie-rods. It has swedged ball-joints, so has to be changed as a whole. Then the four tie-rod ball joint, as a precaution. It also really helped to go back to the original size wheels 4.5" x 15", ET 41, from what I was running in summer, 5.5" x 15", ET26.

Funny, wheel sizes are 2/3 inches, 1/3 metric, and it's considered totally normal...Wheel sizes are 2/3 metric, 1/3 inches, and that's ok, too :lol: :?: :lol:

Sun Apr 30, 2017 12:41 pm

The damping of the dampener is not critical at the end of the travel. Where it is most important is in the middle of the stroke. This is where it spends 90% of its time, so it is this area that wears and gets clearance. To test, pull the rod out to mid stroke. Then try and move it in and out about 1" real fast. If it has good damping at this point it is fine. But as Modok said, even if the dampener is on the bad side, there is probably some other underlying issue.

Sun Apr 30, 2017 12:54 pm

Is there a retro fit kit for early cars?

Sun Apr 30, 2017 3:42 pm

I agree with you guys, hey I got the Ball Joint assembly and now a good damper.
All I have to do is get the car on a lift for inspection. When i do I will give you my report, ha.

IF any one has not felt the Death Wobble you are missing true VW adventure.

BTY I went for my NYS inspection and I was told ball joints are no loner tested even on modern cars. Now that is crazy.

Sun Apr 30, 2017 4:16 pm

dsrtfox wrote: Is there a retro fit kit for early cars?
All you need is the bracket to go on the beam, it's real simple to make or could be cut off a dead beam, and the tie rod too. Offroader guys might just give you what you need for a beer. They go through them rapidly :shock:

I had early tie rods STILL in good condition so I decided to run em, and I got like 30,000 miles out of them! before they got arthritis.
Better than empi I bet :lol: So, I replaced them with slightly newer used ones, made in canada?!
When they run out I might put on a dampener, or, naw

Sun Apr 30, 2017 4:31 pm

nextgen wrote:
BTY I went for my NYS inspection and I was told ball joints are no loner tested even on modern cars. Now that is crazy.

Nah crazy is down here we don't have inspections at all. Rust isn't an issue the way it is other places, so maybe that's the logic. But I see an amazing number of cars with screwed up tail lights that might work but unsafely is even an overstatement. People press their brakes and the reverse lights come on. I've seen cars loose ball joints or tie rod ends while moving.

Mon May 01, 2017 11:48 am

The steering damper function is one of the most misunderstood things...on all cars...not just the ACVW.

As others have mentioned or pointed at....its purpose is to damp small movements that happen at a frequency. I say just a "frequency"....because they can be high or low frequency depending on speed and surface.

They are used to damp the collective movement that is in the steering that comes from the "collective" tolerances that the manufacturer cannot get rid of because they are required.

These tolerances are items like...the radial and axial play of the bearings and the flex in the rotor. And if you set your bearing free play properly with a dial indicator....you see that there is an engineered in +/- tolerance....right?
Now get out your handy triangle formula calculator and multiply that tolerance by the distance from the axle centerline and the added length from the radius/diameter of the rim and tire...and what was just .001" or so of radial play in the rotor and bearings....has multiplied.

You have some small axial tolerance on the trailing arms...some small flex as well.
You should NOT have side to side tolerance in the tie-rod ends and ball joints...that you can physically feel and see. If you do.....its what we call..."worn out". :wink:

But there is SOME small play cushioned by grease in the tie rods and ball joints. You also have steering box gear radial play.

All of these tolerances ....when multiplied by the very slight imbalance and out of round of the wheels (and no tire/wheel is perfectly balanced or perfectly round) or roughness of the pavement vibration.......cause an oscillation at high frequency....but these oscillations do not or should not have great force behind them.

So the steering damper is simply a hydraulic pistons that absorbs the oscillations by moving back and forth at the same rate.

The reason I am needlessly explaining all of this crap:

...is because whenever we talk about dampers....people enter the conversation and ask about the "death wobble" on beam style VWs (types 1,2 and 3) or the "shimmy syndrome" on type 4s and supers with struts.

Tho death wobble...simply put...is caused by a combination of worn, loose or bent parts....sometimes mixed with crappy alignment and usually aided by wheel variation (balance rim spread, dents and lack of true).

The steering damper has no effect on the death wobble...though it may seem to..because it can damp ...as noted...the small frequency vibrations.

The steering damper can actually have a little more damping effect on early McPherson strut type suspensions....simply because the way they are designed and constructed...they have a lot more of the little "tolerance gaps" than the beam style torsion bar suspension (modern multi-link struts get rid of about half of these gaps/tolerances).

These tolerance gaps on VW McPherson struts include (starting at the top):

Strut bearing to strut rod tolerance (about .002"-.003")
Strut bearing radial play (about .001"-.003" depending on bearing type)
Strut cartridge to strut housing play/flex (about .002" of radial play and up to 3* of angle flex depending on strut length)
Idler arm radial play (about .001"-.002" depending on bushing type)
Center link rotating pin angle flex (about .001"-.002" new to about .020" when worn out)
Steering box gear play (about .002")
Wheel bearing play (about .002")

I have installed stock double steering dampers on type 4 cars. Along with actively working to get rid of designed in tolerance gaps that are not needed....this helps get rid of the shimmy syndrome totally....along with making sure the wheels are true.

Of course....one could simply go out and buy a larger diameter/stiffer damper and it may help on a torsion bar beetle as well. Just make sure its rate is not so stuff that the steering does not return to center.

On 411/412 cars we have no extra room for a larger diameter damper. This is why I used two stock ones installed spoon style.

Details for those who care:

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=656691

I sectioned a couple of these last year. I will have to see if they are still in my junk pile. They use piston rings just like shocks....so as noted...when they wear the tube inside...they get loose/dead spots and are shot.

Ray