TheSamba.com :: View topic - Uneven Pressure Plate and Flywheel wear Kennedy Stage 1 200mm

Sun May 28, 2017 8:59 pm

We had the engine out for some other reasons and decided to look at the clutch. The clutch has always seemed fine and works well, no catching or juddering.

About 3500 miles since new & balanced by CB.

The first thing we noticed is uneven wear / a hot spot on the flywheel:

Here is a closer image . . . looks like one area got hot:

There is also a corresponding area on the pressure plate:

To me, the disc itself looks fine:

Ideas?

Sun May 28, 2017 10:00 pm

Cast flywheel?

Sun May 28, 2017 10:37 pm

I would guess something wasn't quite flat, or maybe some kind of grease contamination? Does the spot have "texture" or smooth?

Sun May 28, 2017 11:48 pm

Pruneman99 wrote: I would guess something wasn't quite flat,
possibly
uneven pressure

I wasn't sure what the question was, but, maybe the answer is... it is what it appears to be,

Mon May 29, 2017 9:58 am

Hey guys. Thanks for the comments. I really appreciate you looking at it.
vwracerdave wrote: Cast flywheel?
The flywheel is a CB Chrome Moly: 1303 Flywheel - Lightweight Forged Chromoly - 200mm (o-ring seal)
For reference here is the pressure plate: 1311 Stage 1 - 1700lb. 200mm Kennedy Clutch
For reference here is the clutch disc: 1359 Clutch Disc - Super Disc - 200mm

They were balanced by CB, and there is a "5" mark on both the flywheel and pressure plate, which line up.

Pruneman99 wrote: . . . maybe some kind of grease contamination? . . .
It looked pretty clean. The dust was just powdery, not clumpy as I would suspect if grease or oil was mixed in the dust.

Pruneman99 wrote: . . . Does the spot have "texture" or smooth?
The original machine-work texture is still visible on the friction surfaces, except where it is discolored, there it is smoother, like I would expect from a normal worn-in clutch.

Pruneman99 wrote: I would guess something wasn't quite flat . . . modok wrote: . . . possibly uneven pressure
I took some measurements of the pressure plate from the flat, machined surfaces that bolt against the flywheel up to the friction surface of the pressure plate:

It looks like the pressure plate would engage early on the hot side, by about 0.009 inches.

So I am guessing that as we let the clutch out, all the friction is in that area as it is sliding and engaging. So that small area gets hotter--hot enough to discolor the flywheel.

modok wrote: I wasn't sure what the question was, but, maybe the answer is... it is what it appears to be,

You are right, I did not ask a question :-(

I am trying to figure out what I should do:

1) Button it all back up -- it was working fine before and I should not have looked.

2) Order a new flywheel, clutch and pressure plate from CB ~ $300 plus balance fee.

3) Try to see if CB/Kennedy has some other solution through their tech support.

If you saw something like that on your car, would you be thinking that it is a time bomb and needs attention, or just let it run and hope that it will take care of itself?

Mon May 29, 2017 11:29 am

I would start off with checking the flywheel /pressure plate mounting serface and see if there is a issue there or anything was between, but it looks like the PP is to blame, and the "V: of the triangle is the center of the hot spot.I would contact kep and see what they can do, may be it just plane warped. iron tends to do that and usualy takes set. serface and should eb good to go. I doubt it's the flywheel, you can ise a dial indacator & spin the motor and see whatcha get. IMHO not a disc issue. I have 2 stage 1 kep PP's both are machined diferently, one is rough around the edges of the iron,and the other was fully machined. why?? I dont have a clue, did one step get deleated or just skiped on this plate...or do that have 2 diferent "spec" stage 1 plates? who knows. Ive seen some pepole bolt the pp on 1 bolt at a time and the pp is not centered in the flywheel resess.....did you do it right or...... :roll:

might also need to let the clutch out faster. :shock:

Mon May 29, 2017 11:43 am

Kennedy has excellent customer service. They will be the first to tell you, "Hey we make 1000s of these things and sometimes somethings not quite right, send it back and we'll look after it."

brad

Mon May 29, 2017 12:20 pm

I'd ask CB. You paid good money for a quality product and for balancing. Unless there is some other issue causing this then they need to stand behind the balancing and the products they sell.

Mon May 29, 2017 12:31 pm

Well by your measurements, it looks like the PP wasn't flat. That leave you with a few options.

1. Put it all back together and hope. You will always know it's not right, and it will bug you. It may warp the PP further and cause chattering. But it might work.

2. Get all new parts and have them balance them and install. $$$ option and your total balance may not be as accurate.

3 . Get a new PP and have it balanced, and put it together.

4. Have your machinist mark the existing imbalance, surface the PP, and rebalance the imbalance if that makes sense. I would think that may be the best way to keep the overall balance as close to what it was.

I am NOT a machinist but #4 seems like the option I would explore. Maybe just hit the flywheel with a bit of fine wet sandpaper to "clean" any built up clutch disk material.

Mon May 29, 2017 1:43 pm

Looks to me as the pp got over extended, send the pp to kennady to get repaired, this way the balancing will be the same. When you re install check the clutch throw and limit as needed

Mon May 29, 2017 3:56 pm

It may be the spring of the PP is uneven, BUT... it could be any part. It could be the shoe or stamped housing also, and I could not say how to figure out which, although at the prices these sell for it's not worth fixing them and they don't sell parts anyway.

Pressure plate shoes and flywheels tend to warp more when NEW, than they do after being resurfaced. I find the PP sues go concave but after facing flat....they stay flat. It can be the same with the flywheel but to a lesser degree.
Should you replace the flywheel? HECK NO. Check runout and flatness, if less than .004" leave it alone, if more regrind the surfaces. Then it is better than new. They usually warp into a potato chip shape, which is different than what would cause THIS.

Pressure plates are supposed to be balanced, and flat, and work right. If not, then they are wrong, but if it's good enough to work......then, don't see why you can't put it back together for now.

Mon May 29, 2017 6:00 pm

What size engine is this in?

Tue May 30, 2017 10:37 pm

Thanks for the insightful observations. I really am thankful for the observations.

I put a straight-edge across the pressure plate at various locations, and there is no place that I can sneak the 0.002 feeler gauge under it. So I do not think the plate is warped -- or at least not warped badly.

I need to dig out the dial indicator and watch the flywheel runout . . . need some time to get to that.

As far as sending it back to Kennedy, I plan to call them when I have some time. Since it is over 4 years since the parts were purchased, I do not feel like Kenedy or CB owe me anything, but they might be able to help. It seems like anything they can do would ruin the balance though :-(

mcmscott wrote: Looks to me as the pp got over extended, send the pp to kennady to get repaired, this way the balancing will be the same. When you re install check the clutch throw and limit as needed

This is intriguing, and it made me remember: When we originally installed the engine and transmission, we set the free-play as shown in the Bently. Some time later, maybe 2000 miles, the clutch was not disengaging well. We had to tighten the wing-nut quite a bit--then it seemed fine again. At the time it seemed strange to me that the free-play could be out by that much on basically a 0-mile setup.

How could the pressure plate get overextended? What would cause it, what would prevent it?

vwracerdave wrote: What size engine is this in?
It is a 2085. The end of a long thread is here:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=559423&start=60

Wed May 31, 2017 2:28 am

wow, less than .002, still young. Maybe it looks worse than it really is, not that it's 100% right....just, if you hadn't peeked.....after more run time it might not have been as noticeable.

Wed May 31, 2017 6:54 am

That Daikin Disk has a Marcel Spring that will never be completely flat until it is clamped with the force of the pressure plate. If your pressure plate is not fully disengaging then it will be scuffing the flywheel if not adjusted correctly. Put it back together and run it.

Wed May 31, 2017 8:39 am

I'd take a sanding disc to the effected area on both the FW & PP then put it back together and run it.

Wed May 31, 2017 9:23 am

I do not like working on stuff that I already built. I will never put anything back togeather and see, kinda like a cheeting wife, drop her off at a bar for a few days and see what happens.... send it to kep and have them check it out.if they say put it back in and adjust it right then do it, but....I think they will resurface it and check the sprungthingy.

Sun Jun 04, 2017 10:50 am

We did the flywheel run out. The dial gauge goes from -0.0025“ to +0.0025“ so I think that is called 0.005 or 5mils, correct? Is that bad or good?

The spot that is discolored on the flywheel is actually in the low area. So I think that the difference in the pressure plate is swamping the smaller difference in the flywheel.

Right now, our idea is to use shims to level out the pressure plate. Thoughts?

Sun Jun 04, 2017 11:20 am

I wouldn't , clean it up with sanding disc and run it ..

Sun Jun 04, 2017 3:39 pm

To me it looks like the opposite side of the pressure plate was held away from the flywheel by a small amount.
Look VERY CAREFULLY at the "outside corner" where that mounting surface stops and the vertical "wall" of the flywheel starts. Is there a small "step" or "ledge" there?
The flywheel grinder I operated had a special cutter/tool with a tooth for cleaning up that corner and preventing exactly your situation.
Will machining out that little edge cause you to lose your flywheel's balance weight? Probably, if there is an edge that does not go all the way around the flywheel.
Will that make a difference you can feel?
Depends.
I wouldn't worry about it in a street car...