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Sun Sep 17, 2017 5:18 pm

I have been reading posts on this forum for a while now and it has occurred to me that there is quite a wide variety of opinions on how many miles constitutes a high mileage VW air cooled engine.

I am not talking about race engines in any form, just street driven engines in street legal cars.

I will start by stating my opinion based on my own experience driving these cars back in the late 60's to early 80s. So my experience is somewhat date and limited to stock fare.

Sedans: 80,000 miles is acceptable. 100,000 is exceptional.

Buses: 40 to 50,000 miles is typical.

Opening up the engine for repairs at less than these numbers I would consider premature failure.

Sun Sep 17, 2017 5:22 pm

It also depends on whether its type 1 or type 4.

Bus not included......type 4 engines in sedans....type 4 cars like 411 and 412 or 914.....properly cared for 100k to 125k is the norm. Usually it just heads needing yo be redone at that point.

Ray

Sun Sep 17, 2017 5:29 pm

Thanks Ray, I was just coming back to add that I have no experience with type 4 engines only type 1 and 3s but yes please include type 4 engines too!

Sun Sep 17, 2017 5:42 pm

Quite a bit also depends on the driver and how they use the clutch.. some people should never be behind the wheel of a std shift car period.. put some slick young man behind the wheel that enjoys making every shift nice and smooth .. then put some blonde bimbo behind the wheel that knows two positions for the clutch.. up and down.. 20k -30k miles later not only does car need a new clutch the thrust is beat out of it..

Sun Sep 17, 2017 5:51 pm

vwjetboat wrote: Quite a bit also depends on the driver and how they use the clutch.. some people should never be behind the wheel of a std shift car period.. put some slick young man behind the wheel that enjoys making every shift nice and smooth .. then put some blonde bimbo behind the wheel that knows two positions for the clutch.. up and down.. 20k -30k miles later not only does car need a new clutch the thrust is beat out of it..

I would think blonde bimbos could drive a stick pretty well! :lol:

Sun Sep 17, 2017 5:55 pm

Pruneman99 wrote: vwjetboat wrote: Quite a bit also depends on the driver and how they use the clutch.. some people should never be behind the wheel of a std shift car period.. put some slick young man behind the wheel that enjoys making every shift nice and smooth .. then put some blonde bimbo behind the wheel that knows two positions for the clutch.. up and down.. 20k -30k miles later not only does car need a new clutch the thrust is beat out of it..

I would think blonde bimbos could drive a stick pretty well! :lol:
I have only known a few...they are out there.. I was being a smartass.. i know a lot of guys that can't drive stick either..

Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:56 pm

vwjetboat wrote: Quite a bit also depends on the driver and how they use the clutch.. some people should never be behind the wheel of a std shift car period.. put some slick young man behind the wheel that enjoys making every shift nice and smooth .. then put some blonde bimbo behind the wheel that knows two positions for the clutch.. up and down.. 20k -30k miles later not only does car need a new clutch the thrust is beat out of it..
We have 18 vehicles in our yard including holiday, farm, off road, parts cars and daily drivers and they all have the anti theft sticks and peddles without exception. Very few know how to work those these days!

Anyway I'm not sure how we got on to blonds and clutches so quick... that could be another thread for another day?

Back on track, one of the reasons we moved away from air cooled VWs and embraced the water pumper world was the increase in miles that we travel each year meant engine rebuilding intervals were coming too frequently.

To illustrate that here are some of the vehicles we have mile'd out since then.
Dodge Caravan 180,000 (broken cam) gone
Chev 1/2 ton 260,000 (low oil pressure) gone
Jetta TDI 290,000 (deer hit total loss, running good) gone
Jetta TDI 223,000 (roll over total loss, running good) gone
Dodge Cummins 270,000 (runs like new) current
Jetta gas 210,000 (good running, seeping head gasket) current
Subaru turbo 87,000 (runs like new) current
944 120,000 (runs good) current

Because of the distances here and work demands between the 3 of us drivers we log about 140,000 miles a year.

Although I still have a soft spot for air cooled VWs, reality dictates that we delegate their use to hobby/occasional status. Air cooled VWs just cannot match today's dependability expectations.

Your experience is... ?

Sun Sep 17, 2017 8:06 pm

mechanic my whole life with some customers for decades..
Worked for a huge radiator repair shop in daytona beach. for a few years. daughter of owner blew car up.. said it never ran hot.. car was very well maintained.. of course it never ran hot.. she had picture of her boy friend stuck in dash over temp gauge.

Sun Sep 17, 2017 9:07 pm

Up till the mid 80's when all engines had carbs 100K-125K was the normal life. Modern day engines with electronic fuel injection should get 250K miles. An ACVW needs the heads rebuilt around 75K miles no matter what type it is.

Sun Sep 17, 2017 9:42 pm

expectancy of the 1300/1600 IMO
top end 40-80,
bottom end 60-120k miles

Would reduce by 30% for a bus

based on probably a few dozen "case studies", but that's how the GERMANS built them. Nowadays the average vw engine is a mess, they should last longer than originally, since far better materials and oil and filters are available, but you don't see it often.

Sun Sep 17, 2017 9:47 pm

vwracerdave wrote: Up till the mid 80's when all engines had carbs 100K-125K was the normal life. Modern day engines with electronic fuel injection should get 250K miles. An ACVW needs the heads rebuilt around 75K miles no matter what type it is.

I would agree to that......at 75k....its great preventive even on type 4 to at least have the valves out....check length and cut seats. Also before the dealer tech bulletin on deleting the head gaskets.....75k miles was about as far as you want to go on the head gaskets.

Usually if its well cared for....and not in a bus.....a valve job and new gaskets at 70k and the lower end could go 125 easily. Ray

Sun Sep 17, 2017 10:28 pm

One of the biggest contributors for today’s longer engine life is the removal of lead from the gasoline. Even though it was good for the valves and seats, it was an abrasive to the rest of the engine. Here is a little excerpt I kept from a study I found awhile back.

“According to at least one estimate, up to 10% of the lead in gasoline ends up in the used oil, comprising up to 50% of the weight of engine oil sludge. The particles that accumulate in the used oil cause substantial abrasive conditions in the engine, which leads to compression ring wear, cam and lifter wear, as well as oil degradation”.

Unfortunately I lost the link to the whole article, but I will try and find it if I "need" to.

Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:46 am

I certainly would not have blamed lead for shorter engine life as engine bearing wear surfaces are coated with a lead compound and are anything but abrasive! Sludge build up in my view is purely a result of an inferior oil change schedule and yes it could contain higher quantities of lead as lead is heavy and would settle out quicker. It's presence does not in my mind make it the cause.

The difference in longer engine life for newer engines in I believe is mostly due to tighter control on manufacturing, better metallurgy and don't forget, better temperature control with water cooling. Yes eliminating the over fueling by carbs with chokes would help too.

Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:06 am

too many factors. :shock: my 2028 has over 80000 fun miles on it.my 2332 had about..I dont have a clue, probabluy around 25000 when I pulled it appart for a cam change(roller conversion) that got side tracked buy too many other peoples engines. was it a failure? no. Ive also seen motors go a few thousand miles. there are so many variables.builder, budget, parts, BEER, extra time to make sure the parts do what there wanted to do, or not.. drivers ears, somebody effing with it.somebody effing with it that is a "exspurt", rong fuel, shit oiil, , no oil, loud raido..and so on. this thread pops up so offten, glen&dale should make a nice sttickey thiny. remember there are more rong ways to do somethen that right, and there are oh somany diferent rights and some barley make the right list but arnt rong. and there is all the extra stuff that most dont doo. and then there is the guys that think thats only for race cars....so you do it right for a car going 50 miles or less a year?and the car expected to go 100000 miles gets shit? :shock: you cant fix stupid.

Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:32 am

Anyone that owes a bug now is going to be a bit more attentive to maintained. Not like back in the 60’s and 70’s when all myth was the bug was indestructible and last forever. Well compared to American cars of the era, yes. But not many guys did valve adjustments every 3k-6k. As we know #3 exhaust valve had to get the most attention-- I always gave it a bit more gap then the rest. So it clicked a bit more, it was daily driver. Adding an extractor and not enriching the mixture, for a nice lean burn. Then there was the guy with the heater hoses disconnected and the missing tin. Those added to a faster demise of the engine numbers that you guys mentions and I also agree to.

As I mentioned in another link from my experience and a VW Shop the T-3 when Fuel Injected would go between 100 and 110 k which we believe had to do with tighter assembly spec – on balancing, better cooler system and proper injection of fuel/.

Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:36 am

I have torn down hundreds of VW motors. I worked for GEX when it was in CA in the late 70's. All I did there was a tear down engines to the crank and install finished long blocks. I saw some engines at 100k where the p/c were almost mint. I think too much heat was the main problem. With high mileage dirt and gunk filling the cooling fins was an engine killer.

Don't forget about the engine Ray Vallero built for Dawn whats her name that went 200k.

Dan

Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:51 am

Old timers will say 100K. My experience has been 150K overall, but only if the heads were reworked at 75K. Much of this was from the "bad gas" era and the heads really suffered.

Mon Sep 18, 2017 11:03 am

I agree 75 to 80k because you need to rebuild the heads, most likely valves.

But if you lived in "DA BRONX, NY" and rarely drove at highway speeds, especially since it only gets hot in Summer. You can go to 100k as is as long as the valve don't let go and tear your engine apart.

Big advantage of an aircooled car is NO WATER, so your head gets loose, most guys thought it was the muffler making noise . No Antifreeze leaking . My friends bug went `100k had little power, started fine to get him to the train station for a few years. When I tore it apart his valves were shot and both heads were loose but it still started and ran. Us old guy know how much they were beat to crap. Not until I moved out of the city did i care how the car looked, Smashed bumpers, and fenders, no heat, rotten floor boards, battery falling out was common.

Mon Sep 18, 2017 11:27 am

Vw bug -75 1300 dp 218750,6 miles then dropped valve. Only changed oil an ingnition parts.

Mon Sep 18, 2017 11:48 am

Im at 165k on the 1699 in the bus. At 70K I did do bearing and re ring (didnt really need to do the bearings as they looked great and measured out fine) ex valves and new springs. It needs rod bushings now and will come out soon but this engine has treated me well with a ton of racing and off road abuse. All this with a Century cast crank!!!

If it wasnt for a leaky DRLA I would not have had to do the rings in the first place. This build used all new everything along with gauges to monitor the engine which I believe helped to make everything last so long. That and oil changes every 2K miles since I dont run full flow with a filter.

Clean air, clean oil, proper tune and gauges will keep your engine alive.