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Sat Feb 10, 2018 5:55 am

Greetings,
i havnt posted in this forum in YEARS! but i am revisiting a failed stroker i built years ago. its been shelved and im going to pull it back out and rework it a bit. it was a single port with Solex 34's, which were too small. (i dont know why i let folks talk me into a SP) This is for a 66 Westy with stock tires, tranny and RGB's.

its a 1955 stroker (90.5x76 CB Race kit with CW crank), Scat C25 cam. at build time a new AL case, doghouse cooling, no heat, vintagespeed exhaust. Now ive got new Mofoco 042 heads with single springs im going to swap and i want to get the right carbs.

i was all set to get some Kadrons, but the more i read, the more i think i should stay away from them. im getting so confused. i just "optioned" up a set of Kads to $900 at Kaddie Shack. WTF?!?

can you guys offer any advice? my head is already spinning, more opinions wont hurt :lol: TIA

Sat Feb 10, 2018 6:34 am

Kadies are fine, easy to setup and sync, cheap to rejet...
Nothing wrong with them, just the IDF/DRLAs are 'better'

Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:05 am

Failed as in mechanical failure or it just didn't run right with the dual PICTS?

Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:17 am

Changing from single port to dual port heads is the right direction, but going from dual solex 34 to Kadrons is not. $900 at Kaddieshack!?! Good grief.
If you already owned the kadrons, you could make a good argument for using them, but at that cost it isn't worth it. For less money, like hundreds less, you can have a pair of new HPMX (weber clones).
It's a no brainer, get some 40mm true 2 barrel carbs and the engine will idle and run better.
This kit might have the cheap manifolds that don't work with the doghouse fan, but it shows how much the price has come down
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1797193

Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:57 am

rodeking wrote: Failed as in mechanical failure or it just didn't run right with the dual PICTS?

the motor ran like shit, always hot, vapor locked, leaked oil. thats why i shut it down before i blew it up

Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:59 am

esde wrote: Changing from single port to dual port heads is the right direction, but going from dual solex 34 to Kadrons is not. $900 at Kaddieshack!?! Good grief.
If you already owned the kadrons, you could make a good argument for using them, but at that cost it isn't worth it. For less money, like hundreds less, you can have a pair of new HPMX (weber clones).
It's a no brainer, get some 40mm true 2 barrel carbs and the engine will idle and run better.
This kit might have the cheap manifolds that don't work with the doghouse fan, but it shows how much the price has come down
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1797193

thank you. i saw those and am considering the EMPI's. i have recently read good things about the HPMX's. I WOULDN'T be opposed to paying more for the Spanish Webers if they are more reliable. i assume these are Chinese.

Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:59 am

Sounds more like a bad build than bad advice tbh... SP heads maybe aren't ideal but can be made to work.

Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:35 am

Go dual port heads....40 HPMX will be a dream on your engine... There has been a lot of bad things said about EMPI in past but their new line of products are very good and HPMX series carbs have several improvement of original Weber, best of all all the jetting that fits Webers, also fit the HPMX series so the is no shortage if jets and such...

Dale

Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:51 am

westy66 wrote: rodeking wrote: Failed as in mechanical failure or it just didn't run right with the dual PICTS?

the motor ran like shit, always hot, vapor locked, leaked oil. thats why i shut it down before i blew it up

What deck height and compression ratio were you running?

With stock single ports and 90.5 pistons you could be forced to run larger deck heights to get the compression ratio down, or end up with a compression ratio way to high for that mild C25 cam unless some chamber work was done.

Solex 34's with singleports and a C25 should play nice, but maybe not with that much CC to fill? IDK doesn't sound like too bad of an idea for a low rev bus engine. Jetting might be tricky.

Dual ports will definitely help to get air in. The HPMX carbs have gotten some pretty good feedback. For 399 a set with all the ancillaries, I'm thinking of driving over to car craft and grabbing a set.

Since your changing heads and considering going to HPMX's, I'd SERIOUSLY consider changing that cam or going with ratio rockers.

900 bucks for Kadrons? :shock: Holy hell.

Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:28 am

Update:here is the HPMX kit with the better hardware and manifolds
http://carcraftstore.com/ultradualhpmxcarbkit.aspx
Still 350 less than the pimped out k-dogs :roll:
Don't get me wrong, I like kadron's, their simplicity is well matched for the VW. But at this point most sets are worn out, and fixing them is now more than better carbs that are NEW. And it pains me to recommend anything with the empi name, but I've worked on a few sets of the HPMX and I can't deny that they work well.. so at least someone at the empi facility knows how to make a thing right.

And yes, as Pruneman99 said, get the deck height/chamber cc/ compression ratio correct, and matched to the cam. It's the part that seems to be skipped on many builds, but is the difference between building an engine that runs great, and one that runs shitty, using the same parts.

SD

Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:31 am

UK Luke 72 wrote: Sounds more like a bad build than bad advice tbh... SP heads maybe aren't ideal but can be made to work.
X2
This is a 1776 sgl port w. modified Solex 34 mm PDSIT´s. runs nice and cool, in a bay bus.
Line bored AS case.
Good used stock crank.
215 mm Flywheel, stock weight
Stock 215 mm clutch. All balanced.
Silverline main Bearings
Mahle rod & cam bearings
CB Unitech rods. 550 gr.
26 mm Shadek oil pump w. full flow system. Stock late model oil cooling + a thermostatic controlled steel cooler from a 34 hp engine, located between the struts under the car. (opening temp needs to be raised to 80 d. C. because the engine doesnt really get warm here in early spring)
CB Thin line oil sump. 1,3 qrt.
Engle W100 cam installed on 106 ILC.
CB lightweight lifters.
90,5 mm Mahle cylinderset.
Sgl port cylinderheads, ported, chambers altered to a compact wedge style. Stock valve size. Intake flow 120 CFM at 0,500” and 25”. 9-1 CR.
Manton push rods.
Bolted CB rocker shafts w. 1,25/1,1 rockers.
34 mm PDSIT dual carbs from an early 1700 bus engine. Modified. CB sgl port manifolds w. 20 mm extensions to get more plenum area and also get a better intake length. 60 mm home made intake stacks, bus type hex bar linkage, modifiead to fit in a type 1 set up.
Bosch 205 SVDA distributor from a type 4 bus engine, rebuilt and altered curve to fit the type 1 engine.
Older Scat 30 hp fan housing with doghouse and venturi ring, and large fan.
Stock heater boxes. Bugpack 1 3/8” header with twin Citroen BX 16 mufflers. Exiting at the center of the car, giving a slight 356ish exhaust look. The sound brings up memories of older Alfa Romeo 1800 and 2 liter engines, which aint bad in my ears Smile

Swopping to dual port heads and a set of Empi duals on such an engine will most likely not solve the problems. It should be taken apart completely, inspected, balanced and put back together, - properly.

Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:05 am

Anybody that would spend $900 on a set of Kads is a fool. Kads are great for an economy 1600-1835 build. Spend the extra and get the real Weber IDF's. There is no improvement EMPI can ever do to make the HPMX carbs better than a real Weber. EMPI is the Pimp Daddy as to why all we have is cheap Chinese shit. The less you support EMPI the less shit we will have to put up with.

Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:53 am

vwracerdave wrote: There is no improvement EMPI can ever do to make the HPMX carbs better than a real Weber.

That is what was said when the 'flat back' made in the 'USA' Webers were released and we all know how that turned out.

I only recommend dual singles if you can be ALL IN at $200 (including carbs, rebuild, linkage, manifolds, hose, filters etc) and stock head builds. If spending any more you are just losing money and power. Yes all out race carbs can be made to work OK but Im not a fan of JB weld on the body, running no venturi or paper thin vents that deform with the set screw, the money spent to hp/throttle response ratio is terrible (if you are not doing it yourself).

Newbs get brainwashed with the 'set it and forget it' marketing and think spending $1K on a set of kadrons is worth it if they dont have to mess with them. Any double barrel set can be trouble free with top quality linkage and fuel/air filters along with better mpg, hp and throttle response.

Another secret to making the HPMX (or any bushed throttle shaft carbs) is not to put a heavy return spring on the carb. If too heavy the springs will wear out bushings or bearing saddles pretty quick. Ive seen the heavy springs wear out a new bushing in under 5K miles and kill a carb body in under 10K. The CSP center mount linkage with internal spring help with this problem

Ive got $50 in these carbs so far and I feel like I spent too much already.

-3 core carbs free
-1 jar mothers polish $12
-2 polishing wheels $5
-2 NOS brazil rebuild kits $30
-2 velocity stacks $3

Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:33 pm

AlteWagen wrote: vwracerdave wrote: There is no improvement EMPI can ever do to make the HPMX carbs better than a real Weber.

That is what was said when the 'flat back' made in the 'USA' Webers were released and we all know how that turned out.

EMPI put larger aux vents and top bore in the 40 mm carburetors which is a good idea for runnig 32mm or possibly even 34mm vents. They are still inferior IMO to some models of weber, but superior to some in some applications, which may include this one.

Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:34 pm

vwracerdave wrote: Anybody that would spend $900 on a set of Kads is a fool. Kads are great for an economy 1600-1835 build. Spend the extra and get the real Weber IDF's. There is no improvement EMPI can ever do to make the HPMX carbs better than a real Weber. EMPI is the Pimp Daddy as to why all we have is cheap Chinese shit. The less you support EMPI the less shit we will have to put up with.

I often disagree with Racerdave, but Amen to that statement, and I'd like to buy him a beer!

Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:38 pm

yeah IMO kadrons are about 250$ at the most, I'll pay 400 for good IDFs.
And that's actually even kind of backwards because IDFs really should be 3x what kadrons cost if the world was fair, but HEY...if IDFs are cheep then it's a GOOD WORLD :lol:

Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:39 pm

Alstrup wrote:
a thermostatic controlled steel cooler from a 34 hp engine, located between the struts under the car. (opening temp needs to be raised to 80 d. C.

chambers altered to a compact wedge style.

Hey Torben, thanks as always for such detail, do you have any more details on the bits I've quoted?
Not seen that oil cooler setup before, to my mind would it not be easier to fit a small Mocal?
On the chambers, is material added for that?

Cheers :)

Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:59 pm

Just stating current experience...Have worked with Kads for years. Have them on several of our own cars (1600, 1914, 1955) and installed them on quite a few customer cars. Have done off the shelf as well as 3 sets from Kaddieshack.

Worked on a set of 44 IDFs on a 2332 last year and will do more this spring on that car. Have a 2332 in the shop right now with a pair of 44 HPMX.

Gonna tell ya, I aint a fan yet. Have worked on the car with the Webers for a few days and then got with a buddy that has quite a bit of experience with them. Got it running pretty well, but not knocking me out so far. The other car with the HPMXs runs like shit below 3000 RPMs and only has a little over 1000 miles on it. Seems like the engine builder knew what they were were doing. The jetting is pretty close to one of the charts.

Have the Weber tuning manual on the way and put together a jet kit to play with. Lots of dicking around IMHO and I admit I am not even close to an expert, but these should not be rocket science...

Maybe I will change my tune if I get these things running right, but I can set up and install a set of Kads in an hour or two and the car will work...

Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:12 pm

ONEBADBUG wrote: vwracerdave wrote: Anybody that would spend $900 on a set of Kads is a fool. Kads are great for an economy 1600-1835 build. Spend the extra and get the real Weber IDF's. There is no improvement EMPI can ever do to make the HPMX carbs better than a real Weber. EMPI is the Pimp Daddy as to why all we have is cheap Chinese shit. The less you support EMPI the less shit we will have to put up with.

I often disagree with Racerdave, but Amen to that statement, and I'd like to buy him a beer!

I often agree with him but I believe he's off the mark here...
EMPI are here to stay, lets support them whilst they're ploughing big money into the hobby.

Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:21 pm

westy66 wrote: Greetings,
i havnt posted in this forum in YEARS! but i am revisiting a failed stroker i built years ago. its been shelved and im going to pull it back out and rework it a bit. it was a single port with Solex 34's, which were too small. (i dont know why i let folks talk me into a SP) This is for a 66 Westy with stock tires, tranny and RGB's.

its a 1955 stroker (90.5x76 CB Race kit with CW crank), Scat C25 cam. at build time a new AL case, doghouse cooling, no heat, vintagespeed exhaust. Now ive got new Mofoco 042 heads with single springs im going to swap and i want to get the right carbs.

i was all set to get some Kadrons, but the more i read, the more i think i should stay away from them. im getting so confused. i just "optioned" up a set of Kads to $900 at Kaddie Shack. WTF?!?

can you guys offer any advice? my head is already spinning, more opinions wont hurt :lol: TIA

I would like to try some Kadrons but have yet to get any. I mostly play with smaller engines though which would be more suited to Kadrons than yours, I don't Know Maybe 40's would do your motor nicely.

But, I know why your motor doesn't run well though. It's as if you built it for dual port heads then put single port heads on it and also it's too much displacement for that cam. You should have put a higher lift cam like a Webcam 218 in it or something. The Scat C25 is not opening the valves hardly at all. The best reason though to keep it single port would be to have the looks if you went with a single carb to make it look stock but it's got a lot more in it than you are getting.

Stock Dual port heads would even work but you could try the 42's or the new Panchito's .
If you decide to keep it single port with a stock looking carb maybe modified a little or a single Zenith NDIX 32 I would run the W-100 camshaft, especially if keeping a stock single port manifold. It would be a total tractor though.

If going to larger valve heads like the Panchito's or 42's go with the New Empi D's 36 or 40's, or old Dells or something. And Change that Cam!