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Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:30 am

This thread is meant to discuss how we use oil additive in our air cooled engines. I just received this article from Autohausaz.

Adding ZDP to Your Engine Oil? What You Need to Know

ZDP, also known as Zinc dithiophosphate or Zinc dialkyl dithiophosphate, is a chemical additive used to enhance the performance of a vehicle’s motor oil. While ZDP is the most effective extreme pressure agent in the industry, the idea that one can simply dump the chemical into the oil reservoir and see performance benefits is not true.

In this article, we’ll explain what ZDP is and why so many motorists use it. We’ll also discuss some of the mistakes car owners make when adding ZDP to their oil and how you can properly use the product to boost performance in your vehicle.

What is ZDP?

Also referred to as ZDDP or Zinc, ZDP is a highly-developed chemical mixture that protects engine oil against metal-to-metal contact, maximizing valvetrain longevity. The substance takes a metal (zinc) and combines it with a hydrocarbon to create a metallic material that is soluble in oil, which in effect creates a sacrificial film that coats the engine components, preventing damaging wear caused by metal-to-metal contact.

What you can gain by adding ZDP

When used properly, ZDP acts as a lubricant and protects your engine components from damage and corrosion. This leads to a longer life for your engine as a whole and many internal components like the camshafts and lifters. Although there are noticeable benefits to using ZDP in your oil, researchers have found that improper blending of the chemical into the oil will render it practically useless.

Getting the Most Out of Your Engine Oil

To get the most out of the ZDP in your engine oil, there are a few things to consider. First, if you use oil with detergents or other protective additives, you might not want to use any ZDP, as these serve the same function and can actually end up competing with one another. This can leave the engine components with insufficient coverage, leading to damage and corrosion.

You’ll then want to make sure the ZDP is dissolved completely in your oil, which means you should add it to the oil during an oil change and not simply pour it into the system alone.

I’ve always thought that I could just add it to regular oil like Castrol 10W40. I’ve never purchased anything like Brad Penn. here they say it might not be a good idea to do that. Also, there is no mention of catalytic converter damage which is why oils changed years ago. At least that’s what I thought.

Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:22 am

This is actually a timely conversation to me....on an electrochemical level. In a lot of the chemical suspensions, coatings, inks etc...in my industry ...we deal with the STRANGE interactions of metallic elements and colloids on an almost daily basis.
And if manufacturers are just thinking of what they are working with from a viscosity or solids content basis...they tend to nit get into the metallic interactions at an electrochemical level when heat, pressure, humidity and metallic polarity are all mixed together with the first few items.

ZDDP....and specifically its zinc component....tend to act as reactive colloids when their volume gets too high. They attract and bind up with other molecules. Some of this is part of how they work but...when ZDDP content gets too high it can actually take some of the other critical anti-scuff molecules out of play.

The most common mechanism for this is rarely even discussed...mainly because they cannot be easily seen with something like a simple viscosity test in a fluid with a limited amount of zinc like a motor oil...but they are happening nonetheless.
Virtually all zinc based suspensions are actually a dilatant (meaning shear thickening). In fluid that is say....30% zinc colloids or even flakes....this dilatancy actually causes the fluid to turn into a gel under shear pressure.

There is not enough zinc at 1500 ppm to see that drastic of an effect on viscosity. But its happening through molecular linkage and its happening anyway. The other anti-scuff elements are sacrificial as well and they get depleted by the process.
Moisture also has a HUGE play in this. Zinc reacts with moisture. This changes oil PH...and PH changes AID floculation....which is part of the mechanism.

Too much zddp...and very shortly you can end up with larger conglomerate molecules that are no longer an anti-scuff molecule.

I am just this week working with a client who is seeing these strange property changes in their zinc compound....and are trying to wrap their head around it.
ZDDP....has some of the same issues. Ray

Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:23 am

Valveoline VR1 racing lil (easily found in 20w-50 at my local flaps) is specifically designed for flat tappet engines (like ours) and has a high zinc rating.

Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:33 am

I don't think I'd use that heavy an oil on a brand new engine. In yours, since it's running on 2 1/2 cylinders, I would. :)

Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:36 am

If not that, royal purple or Brad penn for break in and then lifetime the valvoline.

Another one is
Schaefer’s oil
Which I like very very much in my TDIs and my busses, but it’s harder to find.

Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:40 am

If you are trying to booster the amount of ZDDP in your oil, you don't have to add very much of a concentrated ZDDP additive. The amounts given on a typical container assume that you have zero ZDDP to start with which is a down right lie as far as I know. SM/SN oils 10w30 and thinner are limited to 800 parts per million phosphorus, which works out to 800 ppm ZDDP, and few oils have substantially less ZDDP than that. If you want to increase your ZDDP to 1100 PPM you are only talking about a few ounces of a concentrated additive. THE EXACT AMOUNT REQUIRES THE MATH YOU DIDN'T LEARN IN HIGH SCHOOL TO FIGURE OUT.

If you are wanting to go from 800 ppm to 1400 ppm though, I would suggest starting with a different oil, say one that already contains 1100 or 1200 ppm ZDDP.

A 10w40 or thicker oil is not limited in the amount of phosphorus/ZDDP that can be in its additive package, unless it says something like "resource conserving" on the bottle. "High mileage" oils are also not limited in their phosphorus/ZDDP. Check what you buy before you buy.

Straight weight oils too do not have phosphorus/ZDDP restrictions and will often have a viscosity index that rivals a multigrade oil, though it says 30wt on the bottle a modern 30wt may have about the same cold and hot viscosities as a dino 10w30, all without viscosity modifying additives and without having restrictions in the amount of ZDDP that can be added.

Dumping in a bottle or two of "RED" STP may actually lower the concentration of ZDDP in your crankcase while messing with your additive blend in unknown ways.

Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:04 am

Lots of type1 and type4 daily driver folks I know around here use Total racing oil. I dunno. (Not getting into oil debate) Just letting people know. Interested in Ray’s thoughts on this product.

http://www.totalspecialties.com/racing/racing-oil-products/racing-classic-conventional.html

Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:17 am

The CAT issue is what I thought caused zinc to be removed from oils back in the 80’s. Is that not true? If so, wouldn’t adding zddp to a modern car screw up the CAT?

Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:15 pm

aeromech wrote: The CAT issue is what I thought caused zinc to be removed from oils back in the 80’s. Is that not true? If so, wouldn’t adding zddp to a modern car screw up the CAT?

It was not just zddp ....and not primarily zddp....that they limited. They limited SAPS.....sulfated ash, phosphorus and sulfur.

Those items COMBINED with high zddp.....caused combinations that are bad for the cat so they limited or removed both. Its not JUST the zddp.

For example...I was surprised to find that tbe Mobil-1 0W-40 oil that most modern Euro cars use....my 2006 Jetta and 2012 Golf both use 0W-40....and Mobil 1 is on the list........and has close to 800 ppm of zddp.

Its the phosphorous that kills the cat....but its blended it the zddp. Ray

Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:20 pm

high ZDDP will kill a catalytic converter and void the warranty. If you go to the manufacturers web sites they will usually have a sheet on each oil and it will show the ZDDP in ppm.

Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:41 pm

I use Kendall GT1 20W50 in my air cooled.

Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:23 pm

SGKent wrote: high ZDDP will kill a catalytic converter and void the warranty. If you go to the manufacturers web sites they will usually have a sheet on each oil and it will show the ZDDP in ppm.

So Autohausaz is marketing ZDDP for use in cars that have CATS. Seems to me that they should know better

Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:10 pm

aeromech wrote: SGKent wrote: high ZDDP will kill a catalytic converter and void the warranty. If you go to the manufacturers web sites they will usually have a sheet on each oil and it will show the ZDDP in ppm.

So Autohausaz is marketing ZDDP for use in cars that have CATS. Seems to me that they should know better

Don't know what Autohaus is pushing, but it is okay (as far as the law) to use >800 ppm ZDDP o il in a rig with over 75K miles on it. Still not good for the cat, but I guess they figure that by the time the cat is damaged at 75K (plus "x" additional) miles the car will be ready for the crusher anyway.

Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:39 pm

aeromech wrote: SGKent wrote: high ZDDP will kill a catalytic converter and void the warranty. If you go to the manufacturers web sites they will usually have a sheet on each oil and it will show the ZDDP in ppm.

So Autohausaz is marketing ZDDP for use in cars that have CATS. Seems to me that they should know better

You can use zddp....witb cats......but only in heavier oils.

Its the lighter energy saving oils that are more prone to excessive blow by in modern, thin ring engine designs. There is no API regulation requirement for zddp on 40 and 50 weight oils except some diesel oils. Only the 20 and 30 weight oils are REQUIRED to be low zddp. A lot of the specially blended low zddp oils like the 0W-40 and 0W-50 oils that certakn carcmanufacturers require for their new cars are MADE that way because of the demand.....but not because the API or ILSAC require them to have low zddp.

So....if you wanted to use one of the full synthetic, low zddp 0W-40 in your flat tappet engine....and wanted a bit more zddp.....thats what these additives are for. Ray

Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:14 pm

Stuartzickefoose wrote: If not that, royal purple or Brad penn for break in and then lifetime the valvoline.

Another one is
Schaefer’s oil
Which I like very very much in my TDIs and my busses, but it’s harder to find.

I've used Royal Purple and Brad Penn. My local stores carry VR1 but only in 20w50. Oil pressure went way to high with that weight in my car.

Brad Penn i picked up from CB and used their break in oil. Royal Purple was the only brand Amazon would ship to me in CA. They carry the VR1 in lighter weights but wouldn't ship to CA. I've been happy so far with the Royal Purple.

Wed Nov 07, 2018 6:31 pm

I read online somewhere the HEAVY DUTY diesel engine oils are still high in zinc. True, untrue?

H2OSB

Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:09 pm

Wildthings wrote: aeromech wrote: SGKent wrote: high ZDDP will kill a catalytic converter and void the warranty. If you go to the manufacturers web sites they will usually have a sheet on each oil and it will show the ZDDP in ppm.

So Autohausaz is marketing ZDDP for use in cars that have CATS. Seems to me that they should know better

Don't know what Autohaus is pushing, but it is okay (as far as the law) to use >800 ppm ZDDP o il in a rig with over 75K miles on it. Still not good for the cat, but I guess they figure that by the time the cat is damaged at 75K (plus "x" additional) miles the car will be ready for the crusher anyway.

You guys know that zddp is bad for catalytic converters from personal experience, or just what you’ve heard? I asked my Brad Penn dealer, and the high zinc green racing oil is all he has ever run in ALL of his vehicles. These have been his personal vehicles of his three kids, and wife, totaling well over a million miles among them. All modern vehicles with catalytic converters, in which he has never had an issue.

Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:12 pm

ZDDP is sacrificial additive.
how quickly it gets activated and depleted, depends on what KIND of zddp, and how the oil is formulated overall.

Simply adding MORE may not give you the results you want, in fact it probably won't. Sure diesel/fleet oil will have MORE, because they design it to run LONG intervals between changes, but it does not mean that in the short term it will have any better EP protection. i say this too often but really, what it says on the labels is mostly true.

The reason that a lot of oils have the same % amount of zddp as in the past......that's because you run (at least in theory) the oil 3x longer than in the past, so really it's less, as far as a CAT is concerned.

Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:22 pm

This will get locked

Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:23 pm

quacker state defy/high millage according to quacker state has higher zinc than normal oils. how much I dont have a clue. I use it blended with other oils as I always have done. I do not add zinc to my oil.I do use the cam shield in the first batch of oil in new engines. I do remember long ago when the zinc was being depleated from oils and the additives were comming out and crane cams had thier breakin pint of oil for flat tappet cams. it stated something like that.on the label, for breakin only. drain& change filter after 45 min.do not use after breakin. it causes detonation, it also causes cumbustion chamber deposits that glow.I used to talks with the techs at crane frequently,as I recll they also said it's not recomended for roller cam engines....well the cam dont need it I knew that.but there are other sliding parts in there,they said it wont help squat. it's only function was for breakin of flat tapper hyd&solid lifter/cam. thus Ive never added any to my engines.
one of the techs at pensoil told me that all engine oil has some amount of zinc in it....but it was way lower than the old oils. thus the additive then just the oil should do...... I assume the quacker state defy/highmillage has a tad bit more in it than std oil does. they relabeled the cans 3 years ago and they nolonger say zinc fortified but quacker state says its the same as befor still more zinc for older cars, it was a over sight when the label changed and the name changed from defy to high millage.
my bug has had 1 week of std oil(about 5 changes in that first week) after that it's had synthetic 5-20 for about 75000, then I switched to the quackerstate defy/high millage 5-20 semi syn. dont be cheep on your oils if you care about your ride.