TheSamba.com :: View topic - kennedy clutch plate not right. Old school experts please help!

Fri Apr 12, 2019 7:07 pm

running a 2.0 vanagan late model irs trans 091 (has collar so using late model thowout bearing) with a 2110cc engine (type 1 baja bug). new flywheel, new disc. been using a kennedy "stage 2" 2100 clutch plate but disc slips if i clutch hard at all. Tried 2 clutch plates and same result both times. There is very very little clutch arm bearing "play", so throwout is too close to clutch plate fingers (i have no diaphram since its late model throwout bearing). even without the diaphram, throwout is still too close to clutch plate.

I had this problem even before the new flywheel and clutch disk. Flywheel and its "steps" are proper. the trans bellhousing depth, if anything, is deeper than normal so this is not whats causing the throwout to be to close to the plate.

my buddy said he had the same problem on his and fixed it by putting in an old school 2100 "3 arm kennedy clutch plate". these were made in the 70's and they sit closer to the flywheel (or rather, the arms folcrum through a shorter distance and more linearly than the modern ones--the actual finger reach to the same spot). has anyone had this problem? and do you know where i can get an old school 2100 kennedy 3 arm clutch plate? (may be Luk brand) see photos of the new and the old styles.

I have called everywhere and no one even knows what I'm even talking about with the problem or the differences. Old school experts, PLEASE HeLp!!!!!!!

Fri Apr 12, 2019 7:24 pm

Sounds like your flywheel was machined wrong,, or you don't know how to adjust a clutch.

Fri Apr 12, 2019 7:26 pm

Not sure why you need a Stage 2 on a 2110. I have a 2180 with a Stage 1 and have no slipage on fresh tarmac and a tranny with a ZF LSD.

Fri Apr 12, 2019 7:36 pm

Glenn wrote: Not sure why you need a Stage 2 on a 2110. I have a 2180 with a Stage 1 and have no slipage on fresh tarmac and a tranny with a ZF LSD.

cause i tried a stage 1 and disc was slipping so i went up to a stage 2 hoping the higher rating would prevent the slippage---it did not.

Fri Apr 12, 2019 7:36 pm

Glenn wrote: Not sure why you need a Stage 2 on a 2110. I have a 2180 with a Stage 1 and have no slipage on fresh tarmac and a tranny with a ZF LSD.

Doesn't matter, could be a stage 4, he is asking about a problem, not a preference. You like your set up, thats great, doesn't mean his won't work.

Fri Apr 12, 2019 7:39 pm

mcmscott wrote: Sounds like your flywheel was machined wrong,, or you don't know how to adjust a clutch.

as i wrote above...been through 2 flywheels and the specs were checked. No problems with the flywheel (in fact, the most recent one i got from CB). and its not the cable, as even when the cable is slacked all the way out (thus putting the throw out as far away from plate as possible, there is still almost no play in the clutch arm bearing, meaning that the throwout is still very close to the plate fingers. ;-)

Fri Apr 12, 2019 7:45 pm

Post a picture of inside the bell housing. Need to see how the TO bearing is setting on the guide sleeve.
You have converted the clutch release from hydraulic to a cable?

Fri Apr 12, 2019 7:52 pm

jsturtlebuggy wrote: Post a picture of inside the bell housing. Need to see how the TO bearing is setting on the guide sleeve.
You have converted the clutch release from hydraulic to a cable?

Clutch release?? i'm using a cable presently. what conversion? can you tell me more, Sir? here are the pictures of the housing (ignore the oil in the bottom of the well, as it was from something else)

Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:05 pm

When the pressure plate is installed you want to see the "fingers" pretty much flat across. Are they?

Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:08 pm

modok wrote: When the pressure plate is installed you want to see the "fingers" pretty much flat across. Are they?

yes. very. when i pulled out the original stage one, a few of them were bent, but i havent had that issue with either of the stage 2's i put in.

Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:11 pm

From your picture it looks like the TO bearing is not returning to proper place it rest when released.
If have the cable all the way unadjusted there should be about 3/4-7/8 of the guide sleeve sticking out from face of the TO bearing.

Vanagon manual transaxles used a hydraulic clutch release setup.
The 1979 Bus was the last one to use a cable.
Is there a return spring on the clutch arm on the side of the trans?

Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:22 pm

jsturtlebuggy wrote: From your picture it looks like the TO bearing is not returning to proper place it rest when released.
If have the cable all the way unadjusted there should be about 3/4-7/8 of the guide sleeve sticking out from face of the TO bearing.

Vanagon manual transaxles used a hydraulic clutch release setup.
The 1979 Bus was the last one to use a cable.
Is there a return spring on the clutch arm on the side of the trans?

hmm, not sure if the cable had tension on it when i took that picture or not. Ill check that. any other thoughts?? what would cause it not to come to a full rest?

There is definately a return spring on the clutch arm (see pic)

Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:25 pm

if the fingers are flat across, then it's probably OK, as far as it's concerned.
I'm not sure why you mentioned bent. That's evidently not good sign tho.

I don't think you should assume that the pressure plate is the problem. fitting a half worn out three arm pressure plate might be a fix, but, not the right fix. If pressure plate is adjusted correctly there is not supposed to be any difference in that dimension diaphragm VS finger type. In fact the lever type requires more travel to work.
You might want to check that dimension tho, to see where the problem actually is.

how do you fit a type-1 on a vanagon trans?
shorter input shaft....and older bellhousing?
If it's a 002 bellhousing, it should work fine. I've done it, many have....but something you have must be different. Need to figure out what that is.

Fri Apr 12, 2019 9:23 pm

It’s really stretching my old brain,
But,
You need a 002 bellhousing, right?

And also look at the length of the input shaft.
I think there will be a difference in how far they stick out from the face/plane of the bellhousing.

Fri Apr 12, 2019 9:29 pm

yeah that's guess, 002 bell housing, in which case there isn't any vanagon involved, he just put that in to confuse us. :P

Where to get kennedy lever type? there are two on ebay now, but they are the MAx pressure.....kneebreaker model. the 1700 lb is the one to get IMO

spec for where the ends of the diaphragm fingers, or arms, are in relation to the flywheel, is 23-24mm above flywheel outer surface, according to Berg

Fri Apr 12, 2019 9:59 pm

The main case looks like it has 6 ribs (091) and bell housing is a 002 with a 16mm cross shaft. Input shaft is a short one where it slips inside pilot bearing.
Since all the type 2 main cases are same dimensions you can use a 091 case to build a 002 trans. I done many that way that needed the case replaced.

What is the thickness of clutch disc?

Sat Apr 13, 2019 4:38 am

jsturtlebuggy wrote: The main case looks like it has 6 ribs (091) and bell housing is a 002 with a 16mm cross shaft. Input shaft is a short one where it slips inside pilot bearing.
Since all the type 2 main cases are same dimensions you can use a 091 case to build a 002 trans. I done many that way that needed the case replaced.

What is the thickness of clutch disc?

it is definately an 091. disk is a 1359 Super Clutch Disc (200mm) from cb, They dont list the thickness, so i have to call em. What should I be using?

Sat Apr 13, 2019 5:33 am

mcmscott wrote: Glenn wrote: Not sure why you need a Stage 2 on a 2110. I have a 2180 with a Stage 1 and have no slipage on fresh tarmac and a tranny with a ZF LSD.

Doesn't matter, could be a stage 4, he is asking about a problem, not a preference. You like your set up, thats great, doesn't mean his won't work.
Many people "over clutch". I suspect it was the disc and not the pressure plate. A heavy pressure plate gets old real fast from left leg fatigue.

Sat Apr 13, 2019 6:02 am

The photo of the clutch arm spring makes it look like the cable already has the clutch pulled in a bit.

If no one had their foot on the clutch pedal I would concentrate on that area. That could easily explain the slipping and damaged fingers on the first pressure plate.

I'd undo the cable and then make sure the throw out bearing goes all the way back inside. Then put the cable back on without making it move.

Sat Apr 13, 2019 3:09 pm

Make sure the input shaft is not to long it looks in the pic as the end of the shaft may be rubbing