TheSamba.com :: View topic - 1776 Stock Solex vs Center progressive vs Kadrons vs Weber 40IDF

Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:50 pm

Hey everyone I’m going to build a 1776 and was wanting some ideas about carb setups and pros and cons of each. Basically a stock vs center progressive vs Kadrons vs dual Weber 40IDF. My goals are drivability and reliability. [/s]

Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:48 pm

Prior to passing judgment on;
stock vs center progressive vs Kadrons vs dual Weber 40IDF
Do tell us more about what else the engine has, heads cam etc.

Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:56 pm

Search for EZGZ on YouTube.
He just completed a 1776 build and is thrilled with it.
He’s a definite VW junkie and has tons of build videos covering all sorts of different engine configurations.

It boils down to how much performance you want to squeeze out of it.
Performance does not equal reliability usually.
For instance, dual carbs will definitely increase the performance but you will be continually playing with them.

Then there is budget. You may need to have the case and crank machined. At that point you could open it up even bigger opening other possibilities.

If you intend to reuse your stock heads and cam, there’s nothing wrong with reusing the stock carburetor setup.

Keep in mind that this is coming from someone who is building a 2276.
While I believe the engine will last and I have some gauges to monitor things, I know that basically I’m building a toy and will always be playing with it.

GO DELLORTO!

Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:58 pm

Here's my take:

Stock single Solex:

-pros: simple to maintain,excellent manufacture, inexpensive parts available, reliable design, choke, simple throttle set-up, excellent air filtration.
-cons: limited airflow, needs manifold heat, trickier to modify/tune, cam options limited. Can be kept on for install. Good spark plug access.

Proggy:

-pros: more airflow, choke, more flexible tuning options, simple throttle operation.
-cons: needs well-heated manifold, not much bang for the buck, air filtration options limited, cam options limited. Can be kept on engine for install. Front plugs easily accessible.

Kads:

-pros: good value, simple to set-up, simple to tune, flexible and forgiving, parts availability decent.
-cons: bad linkage, limited range, bad air filtration, no choke, no port vacuum unless modified, limited cam choices (but less limited than single carb), must remove carbs to install engine. Front plugs become hard to access.

Twin dual Webers:

-pros: best airflow, best low end, most cam choices, easiest to tune accurately, best flexibility, adaptability, good air filtration available.
-cons: expensive, not so reliable (4 idle jets to keep clean), good air filtration is expensive, harder to synch, and keep synched with many linkages, no hope of changing front plugs, must remove carbs to install engine. Market is flooded with cheap knock-offs.

I've probably left out more than I wrote, but it's a start.

Thu Apr 25, 2019 3:55 pm

Having to continually play with dual carb set up? I think not. There are some down sides to dual carbs but having to play with them more than a single Solex is not one of them.

Thu Apr 25, 2019 4:13 pm

That is a spectrum of options I've often seen on Bugs. The one thing missing is the center mounted single weber IDF. I look forward to seeing the opinions and experiences offered. I think some cam and head info would help you get informed opinions.

Thu Apr 25, 2019 4:23 pm

Hey everyone and thanks for all the info. The build is going to be stock heads, stock cam (ratio rockers?), heater boxes, dual port. I’m not after max power by any means. I’d just like a 5-10 hp boost over stock. Torque is more what I’m after. And I do watch EZGZ and have been keeping tabs on his SP 1776 and that’s what sparked this idea plus I’ve been look at engine setups lately.

Thu Apr 25, 2019 4:30 pm

Without a lot of engine details, here are some general comments and I agree pretty much with Freebug:

Once duals are set up properly with a good linkage, you do NOT have to mess with them. I double check the synch on our dual Kad cars (3 of of the 5 on the road) maybe every 5000 miles or so and they really never need anything.

My 2 cents - stock single carb. You will run out of steam probably above 4000 RPM because the carb will be restricting the air and fuel. What will happen is your horsepower curve will flatten out. So, does that matter to you? One of our cars with a 2332 and dual IDFs has incorrect heads and header which cause the same thing. But it's a show car and it still has plenty of stuff, so I am not going to optimize it. BUT make sure you jet it properly. You will probably need to be a bit fatter than stock.

I mentioned linkage - stock Kad and the hex bar that comes with a lot of carb kits suck IMHO. I use the Scat universal for Kads and the CSP bell crank style for Webers or HPMX. MUCH simpler, more reliable and more accurate. Synching IS important for a street car.

Weber or the Empi HPMX are nicer than Kads, but tuning is a LOT more involved. You have 3 jets per barrel, so it gets expensive. If going that route, I would suggest buying a set from someone who will set them up correctly for your engine. John at Aircooled.net has always done very well IMHO.

Thu Apr 25, 2019 4:53 pm

the main historical advantage of the progressive is they don't cost anything.
Almost free.
If you pay over 100 bucks for one, your doing it wrong.

Thu Apr 25, 2019 5:04 pm

I’ve been reading here and other places and I think I’ll probably go with Kadrons or ITC’s. I know they’re not great for bigger engines but I think they’d be good for my application. And ridicule if you want but I might try the EMPI 40K I believe is what they’re called. They’re Kadron clones with vacuum ports and a cheaper tag. I’m on tight budget (1500 for the whole build) and an even tighter time crunch as my current engine is making it own rev limiter (see oil light anxiety topic). But either way thanks a ton for the info. I think I’ll go duals mainly because I’ve read about the ore heat problem with aftermarket exhaust which have a bad rep in that category. But my only concern is extremely cold temps. How well do duals fair when it’s that cold with no chokes?

Thu Apr 25, 2019 5:35 pm

Define cold.

Thu Apr 25, 2019 5:52 pm

Thu Apr 25, 2019 5:58 pm

Down to 10-20 degrees F

Thu Apr 25, 2019 6:00 pm

I would much rather sacrifice power for utility if it comes down to it. I’ve heard people say their duals can start is whatever cold weather but on a daily basis I wonder if the story would change.

Thu Apr 25, 2019 6:08 pm

Defining cold was well stated.From my perspective in Indiana I have run duals in cold weather thats here.Mind you it is not Canada cold. Anyway they start fine but run lean initially and after a minute or so you can let them idle on their own. I was doubtful at first too but it is true.They warm up fast and run fine in colder weather.Mind you someone from way up north may have a different experience.

Thu Apr 25, 2019 6:13 pm

Ok that’s exactly what I wanted to know!! Thanks! I just didn’t want to get a set just for them to crap out come winter. And mine sits for 3-4 minutes now just to let everything get warmed up a little so it seems like a similar routine.

Thu Apr 25, 2019 6:25 pm

https://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=C13-43-4430 Get these with the better linkage.

Comment from Kaddie shack about the carbs (from their website) "EMPI has redesigned and manufactured a new version the original Kadron Solex H40/44EIS carburetors, manufactiured originally by Brosol. They are very new to the industry. We have been testing them on our own personal cars, and found them to be of sufficient quality that we are offering them to our customers as a less expensive alternative to the original Brosol carbs, with the understanding that there are still some bugs that may need to be worked out. We will, of course, stand behind our workmanship and help you dial them in, and will offer the same top-notch service and support that made us famous if you choose to install them."

Choke - we don't usually drive our cars below 40 degrees. You will need to let them warm up a bit and even at that they may fart on occasion when its cold.

Thu Apr 25, 2019 6:27 pm

74SuperScary wrote: on a daily basis I wonder if the story would change.
I haven't had to fix anything but the airfitlers in a 8 years. Of course, it helps that I know what I'm doing.
Your not going to be able to get that bolting on any "kit" tho, in any case.
A lot of manifolds and airfilters and linkages are not great, but just carburetor VS carburetor, IMO the weber 36IDF is the best. Not sold new...I know, abut if you look hard....you will find some, and they HOLD UP... not fall apart like cheap solexes.

If you start out wiht a really GOOD carburetor, then the more you put in, the more you can get out.

Kadrons were actually designed and made for a VW engine so they "were" very close to bolt on and go, which is great, but very much a one trick pony otherwise, and now they are antiques.

Thu Apr 25, 2019 7:00 pm

I’ve read that before as well which is another reason I went with them. Even though they are EMPI if the leaders in quality Kadrons say their of sufficient quality then they’re pretty good. I have an EMPI 34 pct on the car now and I’ve had absolutely no problems with it. And I don’t know if any of you have Kadrons on your cars but I think they’d be marginally better for plug access that dual 2bbls.

Thu Apr 25, 2019 7:14 pm

Getting to the spark plugs with IDFs is a little tough, depending on what combination of shroud and manifolds, in what car, but is possible to change them without even bleeding.
If you do a lot of work on modern cars....it doesn't seem so tough. :lol: