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Mon Jul 22, 2019 1:09 pm

I've searched and found a little info but not a lot.

What linkage would be "better" concerning geometry? A hex bar linkage like CB performance or the Vintage speed linkage (the csp style)?

The VS linkage does appear to have a angle difference between driver's side and passenger's side rods SO I would think that would affect partial throttle sync. Does it?

I've found a lot of posts that say the hex bar sucks but no one lists any actual reasons. When I installed my redline linkage on my IDFs the only issue I've found is the notches on the arms that go to the rods aren't machine exactly the same. So you get a bit of miss match there...

I've personally experienced no real issues with the hex bar other than the bushings wear out. My last motor was narrower than the current one so I'm in the market for a new linkage and just want to make sure I get the best one that I can. I originally planned on getting a CB performance hex bar linkage but then I started seeing that a fair amount of people prefer the VS linkage. It's pretty creative how they made the quick connect. The motor can grow in width and not affect idle settings.

I'm using CB offset IDF manifolds. The VS linkage says it works well with all sorts of manifolds. Is that where the angle difference comes from, the offset manifolds?

Mon Jul 22, 2019 1:29 pm

A proper hex bar any day.
I only use push pull when I do not have space for hex bar.

I think most of the reason to why people dislike hex is that they buy the cheapest they can find which gives you twist problems almost immediately, also they cant figure out how to adjust it, so they settle with something sub par.

Mon Jul 22, 2019 1:33 pm

Alstrup wrote: A proper hex bar any day.
I only use push pull when I do not have space for hex bar.

I think most of the reason to why people dislike hex is that they buy the cheapest they can find which gives you twist problems almost immediately, also they cant figure out how to adjust it, so they settle with something sub par. I agree. Ive seen way tomany that were not installed correctly,not adjusted right, loose arms, broken arms.clueless owner, clueless installer, clueless tuner... I had zero issues with mine since I put it on way back in 04. somethings you can not fix, stupid is one of them.

Mon Jul 22, 2019 1:42 pm

Pretty much what I expected. The way I see it is the hex bar is superior. As long as the arms are straight and the throttle hits the stops at the same time I would think it would be pretty darn close to perfect.

Mon Jul 22, 2019 2:01 pm

IMO . . It all comes down to quality.
I have used both center pull and cross bar linkake, when properly set up both will do the job.
You gotta have patience and set it up right.

Personally I've been moving more to the center pull or twist style just because I like the cleaner look.

The one style I really don't like is the original Kadron linkage.

Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:02 pm

My opinion is the hex bar is complete junk (and looks ugly). All my engines now have CSP push/pull linkage. There is no question. Once you have used the CSP linkage you will understand.

The CB hex bar needs bearings at each end of the crossbar and a support bearing in the center to eliminate flex.

Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:05 pm

Strong preference for the CB hex bar setup, especially with the bearing upgrade I used to offer.

Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:22 pm

CB hex with a bearing upgrade is just about as perfect as it gets off the shelf. I prefer the offset manifolds and matching linkage over the straight manifold setup. The straight manifolds use a 1" spacer on the drivers side carb arm, and I feel it makes arm flex.

Lately I have been running straight manifolds with offset style linkage and filter bases. The hex doesn't sit parallel to the shroud, and you have to grind the back side of one arm, but I have found it to work awesome, just look a little strange. You also get straight manifolds that flow better and are easy to get at the plugs.

Brian

Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:48 pm

Top end HEX bar.... The ones with aluminum air cleaner base as mount.... The cheap steel ones will work but it takes more patience to setup and to keep in tune...

The thing people don't realize it takes as much effort to tune linkage as to get carbs adjust correctly... Most think linkage is "just" something to move butterflies, well it is, but a bit more, it has to be good....

Dale

Mon Jul 22, 2019 5:13 pm

The last 2 carb kits I've gotten from CIP1 have junk crossbar linkage. The hex bar is so soft it flexes horribly. The balls that fit in the plastic bushings are far too small I had to use .010 shim stock and line the bushing with it so the hex bar didnt flop around in them. The steel bases and the linkage arms are good, but the hardware is cheap junk and the rod ends are of mixed quality.

I noticed they are selling them as Weber/HPMX copies. I think they're buying them direct from China and bypassing Empi all together.

brad

Mon Jul 22, 2019 7:21 pm

Thanks for the responses. It's about what I figured. Have to get quality but there's people on both sides saying one is better than the other.

Its in a ugly lookin baja. I believe firmly that form follows function so with that said I've tried to make things as simple and easy as can be... Oil filter is easily accessible, body is trimmed enough to access the carbs but not so much to let water splash up and hit the carbs. Lots of ugly but usable stuff anywhere I could.

I've seen the bearing upgrade somewhere for the cb kit. I'll look around. Seems to be the consensus that for hex bar kits, CB with bearings would be the way to go..

Mon Jul 22, 2019 7:27 pm

Somewhere along the way was a mod to bore ends of hex bar and slide in a sleeved needle bearing and turn down the end pivots on base to fit in roller bearings....

Probably need to use "way back when" machine to find it...

Dale

Mon Jul 22, 2019 7:34 pm

Dale M. wrote: Somewhere along the way was a mod to bore ends of hex bar and slide in a sleeved needle bearing and turn down the end pivots on base to fit in roller bearings....

Probably need to use "way back when" machine to find it...

Dale

https://www.aircooledparts.com/HEX-BAR-NEEDLE-BEARING-UPGRADE.html Holy how I thought they were cheap but I didn't see the 4 in there lol. I used empi bushings once to replace the wore out ones on my redline linkage and they were the same.

Mon Jul 22, 2019 7:46 pm

ekacpuc wrote: Dale M. wrote: Somewhere along the way was a mod to bore ends of hex bar and slide in a sleeved needle bearing and turn down the end pivots on base to fit in roller bearings....

Probably need to use "way back when" machine to find it...

Dale

https://www.aircooledparts.com/HEX-BAR-NEEDLE-BEARING-UPGRADE.html Holy how I thought they were cheap but I didn't see the 4 in there lol. I used empi bushings once to replace the wore out ones on my redline linkage and they were the same.

What I was referring to was article here on samba... By the way you can get sleeved needle bearing from McMaster for about $10 (or less) each and If you have ability to machine stuff, you are in easy....

https://www.mcmaster.com/needle-bearings

Dale

Mon Jul 22, 2019 7:47 pm

Dale M. wrote: ekacpuc wrote: Dale M. wrote: Somewhere along the way was a mod to bore ends of hex bar and slide in a sleeved needle bearing and turn down the end pivots on base to fit in roller bearings....

Probably need to use "way back when" machine to find it...

Dale

https://www.aircooledparts.com/HEX-BAR-NEEDLE-BEARING-UPGRADE.html Holy how I thought they were cheap but I didn't see the 4 in there lol. I used empi bushings once to replace the wore out ones on my redline linkage and they were the same.

What was referring to was article here on samba... By the way you can get sleeved needle bearing from McMaster for about $10 (or less) each and If you have ability to machine stuff, you are in easy....

https://www.mcmaster.com/needle-bearings

Dale

I was actually just thinking the same thing. Where I work has a full machine shop and plenty of thirsty machinist to easily bribe to just do it for me ;-)

Mon Jul 22, 2019 7:55 pm

If you get the cb linkage, bruce is still selling his bearing kit, which I have on one engine. When bearings are installed, the pressure it takes it to operate is so light you can almost operate on carb return springs only.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1725307

Vwracerdave, you dont need a third bearing when you have end bearings and a steel hex bar as there is zero flex. That mod was to address aluminum hex bars that were sold 20+ years ago.
You think the hex is ugly, to each their own. Push/pull twist linkage looks like offset coat hangers someone desperatly rigged in emergency to get home, but some people love it, so whatever.

Mon Jul 22, 2019 8:00 pm

Also think I saw a mod where somebody machined the ends of hex bar round and supported it in a heim joint mounted to air cleaner base, but then it would take a extra long hex bar cut to length and a bit of work to mount heim joint to air cleaner base, but if you have the time and tools...

Dale

Mon Jul 22, 2019 9:11 pm

I bought them BOTH! Haha!
I had the hex from cb and was told by mharney (doesn’t frequent here anymore but was AWESOME and knew his stuff)
He said it would really stress out the throttle shafts on the dual carb linkages because they were “spaced out” with barrel connectors and I agree.
I haven’t installed the csp push/pull but I “think” it looks to be a better (and cleaner looking imo setup)
I currently have 2 sets of baby Dell’s and some Dell drla 40’s and would like to preserve the throttle shafts as long as I can.

Mon Jul 22, 2019 10:11 pm

67 Sunroof wrote: I bought them BOTH! Haha!
I had the hex from cb and was told by mharney (doesn’t frequent here anymore but was AWESOME and knew his stuff)
He said it would really stress out the throttle shafts on the dual carb linkages because they were “spaced out” with barrel connectors and I agree.
I haven’t installed the csp push/pull but I “think” it looks to be a better (and cleaner looking imo setup)
I currently have 2 sets of baby Dell’s and some Dell drla 40’s and would like to preserve the throttle shafts as long as I can.

What’s spaced out with barrel connectors?

Mon Jul 22, 2019 10:46 pm

The heim joints have too much of an angle to mount them directly to the throttle shafts so they need to be spaced out to work properly.