TheSamba.com :: View topic - What do you guy find wrong with the Chinese IDF copies?

Mon Aug 17, 2020 12:28 pm

I have always been able to make any carb work just fine.

Even the $80 cheapos.
Check everything. Run it..

Mon Aug 17, 2020 12:41 pm

I guess the definition of "fine" is where we differ.
In late May I put a set of new Fajs carbs in the recycling bin. IMPOSSIBLE to get the idle just in the nearby of right. Even with 13 mm float height and 45 idles they poured fuel in. Fine if you accept 12,5 afr on cruise, but that´s not ok by me.

As for which carbs to buy, I can´t tell you. I think the best way to buy cheapo carbs is to figure out who sells carbs from tier 3 and take your chance. As I wrote earlier, there is approx a 2% chance that they are perfect, 18% chance that they are reasonably easy to get to work properly, 60% risk that they need to be massaged a good deal and 20% risk that they are crap. :roll:

Mon Aug 17, 2020 1:01 pm

Alstrup wrote: I guess the definition of "fine" is where we differ.
In late May I put a set of new Fajs carbs in the recycling bin. IMPOSSIBLE to get the idle just in the nearby of right. Even with 13 mm float height and 45 idles they poured fuel in. Fine if you accept 12,5 afr on cruise, but that´s not ok by me.

As for which carbs to buy, I can´t tell you. I think the best way to buy cheapo carbs is to figure out who sells carbs from tier 3 and take your chance. As I wrote earlier, there is approx a 2% chance that they are perfect, 18% chance that they are reasonably easy to get to work properly, 60% risk that they need to be massaged a good deal and 20% risk that they are crap. :roll:

I really have no Idea on how to begin to decipher that type of information.
Really about the only thing I know is she showed me set on amazon that were $107 a carb and said she was thinking about buying them.

Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:08 pm

Alstrup wrote: I guess the definition of "fine" is where we differ.
In late May I put a set of new Fajs carbs in the recycling bin. IMPOSSIBLE to get the idle just in the nearby of right. Even with 13 mm float height and 45 idles they poured fuel in. Fine if you accept 12,5 afr on cruise, but that´s not ok by me.

As for which carbs to buy, I can´t tell you. I think the best way to buy cheapo carbs is to figure out who sells carbs from tier 3 and take your chance. As I wrote earlier, there is approx a 2% chance that they are perfect, 18% chance that they are reasonably easy to get to work properly, 60% risk that they need to be massaged a good deal and 20% risk that they are crap. :roll: recycle bin!!! OMG!! those would make great book ends!!! or to hold up a glass tabletop!!
Ive always been good at carbs and getting them to work. but I did have a old bug spray that the booster was made rong...I shopuld of fixed it but...I bought a set of the newly released empi hpmx 44's way back when...04 possibly that was a totaly new learning curve for me as I had never touched at webbers. I think I made the right choice as when i as done with them I would venture to say I had very close to 2x more hp than the bugsprays.....on my 1874 cc and a lot more smiles per mile. very similar to my duel 4 bbl holly tunnel ram fun.... to some people just starting and running is fine. and thats all they know. and they think they are exspurts because it starts.

Mon Aug 17, 2020 7:21 pm

Alstrup wrote: DANG!
I ran into the typical IDF afr dip in the 2900 -3400 rpm range, so I decided to drill 1 hole in the E tube second row. That made it significantly better, but not quite where I wanted it.

Would you mind expanding on this a bit more as the concept of modifying the e-tube to fit the engine is beyond the skills of the basic tuner and one that a few of us would like to start to understand. Do you mean the afr dipped lean or rich? I am assuming that you mean dipped rich and that opening up the hole at this point of the e-tube added air here and flattened out the afr curve.

I also assume second row means second row from the air corrector jet, not second row from the main jet.

My assumptions above are based on how David Vizard explains e-tubes and my reasons for asking is simply because I like to learn.

Thanks in advance,
Jeremy

Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:44 pm

j-dub wrote: Alstrup wrote: DANG!
I ran into the typical IDF afr dip in the 2900 -3400 rpm range, so I decided to drill 1 hole in the E tube second row. That made it significantly better, but not quite where I wanted it.

Would you mind expanding on this a bit more as the concept of modifying the e-tube to fit the engine is beyond the skills of the basic tuner and one that a few of us would like to start to understand. Do you mean the afr dipped lean or rich? I am assuming that you mean dipped rich and that opening up the hole at this point of the e-tube added air here and flattened out the afr curve.
Well. The Dang part was the nice and short way of saying DAAAAYYYUUMMM! :roll: :lol:
Alright, seriusly, you are correct. The AFR dipped rich and to great extend caused the typical IDF/IDA powerdrop in the lower part of the midrange. By doing this I cleaned up both the afr curve and picked up about 10 Nm torque in that specific rpm band. That´s so much that you can feel it when driving.

I also assume second row means second row from the air corrector jet, not second row from the main jet.
YUP! Just under to be exact

My assumptions above are based on how David Vizard explains e-tubes and my reasons for asking is simply because I like to learn.
He has been part of my learning experience too. Some of what he´s saying kinda doesnt hold water anymore. On the other hand it still holds for the average tuner, - and sometimes the theory works on one type of engine but not on another. If you can cut through that he has a LOT! to give, also for the VW/Porsche community.

Thanks in advance,
Jeremy

Thu Jul 08, 2021 7:51 pm

Brian_e wrote: I built a 1986cc bus engine with real Spanish IDF's, brand new from CB. They worked pretty good. Slight transition hesitation that was later worked out
.
The next engine was a budget 1835cc bus engine. I used some no brand china IDF's with CB linkage, and they worked awesome. Same amount of crap in the float bowl's, and the floats were just as far off when received as the real ones.

I have a shelf full of decent rebuild-able 44IDF's, and various DCNF's. They have been there for years. No reason to rebuild a mystery carb when you can get these now. Add a $200 CB linkage and manifold kit, and for under $400 you have a near perfect set of very usable carbs.

Brian
In the last few weeks I've helped a good friend convert his Porsche Speedster replica's mild 1776cc engine from Weber 34 ICT to IDF clones. I researched kits a lot from comments here on theSamba and suggested this one-
https://www.ebay.com/itm/223936913947?_trkparms=ai...%3A2563228

Then recommended CB Performance's Type 1 IDF air filter, offset manifold and hex-profile crossbar linkage kit. With all of those parts he ended up under $400. I plan to create a thread on the work soon. We're not yet done, but do have both carbs + manifolds on the engine and started with the linkage kit adjustments. Should be up and running on my next visit.

Overall: These carbs were very impressive as to the manufacturing quality! Very clean inside, all jets/jet stacks and passages were nicely machined and had no obstructions, even the floats were set close to ideal. As advertised, they came with 200 air correction tubes, F11 emulsion jets, 50 idle jets, 115 mains, 28 mm venturies. By contrast, the CB manifolds and cast aluminum air cleaner bases were terrible as to the machining "quality' and the machine threads. It took hours of grinding, filing and chasing threads with a tap to get them "acceptable", fit onto the heads and clear the cylinder tins on the inboard sides of the manifolds. Disappointing for "made in the USA". Was discouraging but we worked through the problems. I'll show them in detail in my upcoming thread, as well as providing an eagerly anticipated first-drive report.

Thu Jul 08, 2021 8:10 pm

Can't wait to see the results.
I recently got a pair of the 40 IDF clones myself, mainly because I think the price can only go up and was curious about the quality.
Didn't need em just wanted them in case. 8)
A quick once over and I was pleased with the quality so far, like you said all the jet sizes checked out, only the float needed adjustment.

I'm glad they don't have the enrichment circuits, those are nothing but trouble.

Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:21 pm

QRP, the ones I worked on were definitely cleaner on the inside than yours. There was no oxidation/white residue along the vertical walls of the float bowl. Also, the top flat surface of the carb body was well machined with no small nicks such as seen on yours.

I initially wanted to remove the pump jets and take out the aux venturies for cleaning and inspection, but between my friend and I we did not have a flat-blade screwdriver that fully gripped the jets' slots. Did not want to create a burr along the slot edge, as they were installed quite securely. Instead, I poured paint thinner into the float bowl and activated the throttle; observed that the stream coming out of both pump jets was uniform and aimed well so that I decided not to remove the jets.

On my friend's set, the choke cover had some identification marks on it which are not seen on yours. I'll load some initial photos in the next few days.

I also want to order a set of the same ones in my link above for myself soon; I think it's an amazing product for the price and the jets/venturies will work well with my mostly stock-valve heads and mild overall engine builds. I also already have manifolds, linkage and air cleaners to make the setup work.

Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:38 pm

I hate to say it but I kinda agree, the ones pictured above don't look that great. I've seen other pictures that made the casting look really nice but the finish on those looks kinda cheap or something.

Fri Jul 09, 2021 7:25 am

i paid 160 for the pair I bought. other than jetting (i already had linkage and manifolds for my type 3) on a 1600 everything has been running good, I have finally ended up back on 115 (not the ones that came with the carbs ) mains and 45 idles, plugs look good and the amount of grunt over a set of ICT's was definitely noticeable. I had put 1500 miles on the car with them on before my road trip and then another 1200 miles during the road trip and they stayed tuned and in good working order.
I dont have a wideband to tell you how they do through the rpm range , but it doesnt smell rich and like i said the Plugs look the appropriate color. for a 1600 this is a 1000% better than the ICT's i had when they were new. the real question will be to see how they fair over the course of several years. as of now no complaint. I wouldnt hesitate to buy another pair, and i just may to have another set on the shelf. but like everyone is saying you absolutely have to go through them and clean them, adjust everything, and even make sure the butterflies are aligned (mine were off kilter).
IF your a brand name guy , i get it. but if your a cheap ass like me then these things do good enough if your willing to put in the work

Fri Jul 09, 2021 6:42 pm

Photos added.
Rome wrote: QRP, the ones I worked on were definitely cleaner on the inside than yours. There was no oxidation/white residue along the vertical walls of the float bowl. Also, the top flat surface of the carb body was well machined with no small nicks such as seen on yours.

I initially wanted to remove the pump jets and take out the aux venturies for cleaning and inspection, but between my friend and I we did not have a flat-blade screwdriver that fully gripped the jets' slots. Did not want to create a burr along the slot edge, as they were installed quite securely. Instead, I poured paint thinner into the float bowl and activated the throttle; observed that the stream coming out of both pump jets was uniform and aimed well so that I decided not to remove the jets.

On my friend's set, the choke cover had some identification marks on it which are not seen on yours. I'll load some initial photos in the next few days.

Sat Jul 10, 2021 5:33 pm

China can make amazing products, hay they made it to Mars !!!! But from my experience working in the elevator industry it seems, if the item has a lot of parts, some of those parts may come from other vendors. Especially now when there is a lot long time production delays. Those vendors may have sub standard machines and work out of someone's garage.

Sat Jul 10, 2021 6:46 pm

How can you tell the difference between Empi IDF´s gen I & II & III and bad / better / good of the other aftermarket versions?

Are there any numbers / letter / markings on it on the body itself to sort them out?

Just wondering. People are talking a lot when they like to sell stuff.

I always used the real thing only, but I might have to .....

Mon Jul 12, 2021 5:51 am

Update: I just finished dialing a set of Faja's 40 IDF's on a 1928cc motor over the weekend.
I checked and adjusted the floats.
I checked the jets and E-tubes. all on target. (didn't see any off drilled holes on the E-tubes that folks warned about).
Jet's all measure on target size.

Balance between barrels was excellent. They dialed right in and run great.
Zero issues.

They hold fuel pressure for 5min after shut down, no bleeding of the inlet valves.

Throttle shafts move smooth like butter.
Added a CSP linkage for butter smooth throttle action.
Sync is perfect.

Mon Jul 12, 2021 1:51 pm

Good to hear, I like the CSP linkage so well that I just ordered a set for my IDF clones too.

Mon Jul 12, 2021 2:07 pm

I´m glad other people have luck with them. I just got a set in this weekend (Actually I got the entire engine) This set of clones have the classical uneven height main jet seats. About 0,75 mm difference. Next, the acc pu,p jets are stamped 55, IRL they are more like 75. They are HUUUGE! and can almost flood the poor little 2 liter they sit on. I´m not entirely sure about the idle circuit on the one carb. i need to fix another issue with the engine and get it back together . Then I will try again to figure out if it was an engine fault or it really is the idle circuit that has issues.

Mon Jul 12, 2021 6:13 pm

Has anybody tried a set of clone 48 IDF's?

I have a set and never installed them. I can't remember if they are FAJ's or not. They're in storage ATM.

But I'm curious if they work as well, with some help. As the 40's and 44's.

What y'all think?

Mon Jul 12, 2021 7:16 pm

Alstrup wrote: This set of clones have the classical uneven height main jet seats. About 0,75 mm difference.

Care to elaborate on this one?
Would be cool to see how you measure this.

Also cool to see would be how the new carbs purchased by our recent posters that "look great" measured up..

Mon Jul 12, 2021 7:29 pm

Clatter wrote: Alstrup wrote: This set of clones have the classical uneven height main jet seats. About 0,75 mm difference.

Care to elaborate on this one?
Would be cool to see how you measure this.

Also cool to see would be how the new carbs purchased by our recent posters that "look great" measured up..

Uh! I've had my 48's for two years. So I'm out on this one.
Never ran them. Just have them incase!