TheSamba.com :: View topic - Post-Mortem of a 1904: Need some input

Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:21 pm

skills@eurocarsplus wrote: Dan~

here is the engine in my bus

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0

don't use deves rings or I will punch you in the dick

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7421137

https://rennlist.com/forums/911-forum/402884-deves-rings.html

I’m definitely not trying to get punched!!

I know for a fact that it has Total Seal 2nd rings but I don’t remember which brand for the other two. Gotta dig through the build receipts to see.

Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:24 pm

skills@eurocarsplus wrote: Dan~

don't use deves rings or I will punch you in the dick

l

hahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:31 pm

D/A/N wrote: skills@eurocarsplus wrote: Dan~

don't use deves rings or I will punch you in the dick

I’m definitely not trying to get punched!!

I know for a fact that it has Total Seal 2nd rings
Oops, you still get punched
:lol:

Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:54 pm

D/A/N is a good dude with a great wife and a kid...

every time the guy tries to do the right thing he gets the wrong advice, and has to re-re-re-re do everything.

I am working with them now on their bus...that was "restored" by a member here who conveniently forgot to cut out rusty floors and weld in new ones....but buried it in roofing tar and painted over everything...

anyway, they were here putting in some sweat equity to help keep my end a bit more affordable and the engine conversation came up. I let him take my bus with the 1904 I built for a rip....it's the same engine I linked in here....it's the same engine that drove me to Subaru conversions....it's the same engine that is a 2 stroke pig because I got so fed up with it....I never fixed it (yet)

anyway...he we are. I can't speak for D/A/N but I think he wants what is in my 71 camper (again, I linked the build) so if he can make that happen with what he has, I think that is what he's aiming for.

the 1904 in my bus does quite well. some day when I have 5 mins to myself I will pull it down and re-re-ring it.

Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:42 pm

skills@eurocarsplus wrote:
every time the guy tries to do the right thing he gets the wrong advice, and has to re-re-re-re do everything.

Sure. A mess. I remember him struggling with tuning it.
I don't even want to give any more "advice" just add to the confusion.

But I been there. We all have.

I put American Hastings rings on Chinese "Safety" brand pistons in a Japanese engine and followed the wrong advice on honing it. Basically same thing.
Good compression, good power.... consumes a quart of oil per tank of gas like clockwork.
Rings are like that. The piston and rings and cylinder and cylinder prep is all a COMBINATION.
Same thing with heads on an engine. Carbs, manifolds, heads, cam, exhaust...
Find a combination you like, copy it exactly. And it will work exactly the same. Change any one thing....now you have an experiment.

Paint is like that too, I'm sure you know.

Sun Jun 28, 2020 3:00 am

This sure is a load of,,, unlucky decissions.
Yes, those heads were no good, especially in that period. Heads in general from that double D vendor looked good on paper, but was mainly sub par to most else on the market.
The heads themselves look reasonably allright from picturees. They can be better, but not bad (cooling wise) The intake ports are clearly too large for an engine that is supposed to pull lower to mid rpm torque. So is the exhaust valve. Whoever did that built you a set of heads that looks to be designed to pull max power at 6500-7000 rpm. If It needs to you could get a split dur cam on tight lobe centers to compensate for the valve combo etc. But I wouldnt do that unless it was really nessessary.

I also notice in the original post that someone talked you into using a lightweight flywheel. Another thing I wouldnt do in a bus engine that size.

Now, if crank, rods and cylinders have survived this ordeal, you have a set of 40 Dells that is where you need to start from.
I´m with Brian on the combo he menthiones. OR if you want to take it one step further, chose a set of Panchito´s and use the Web 218/119 cam to control the exhaust side.
Definitely use a 1½" muffler (and heaterboxes if you use them) whether it´d be a VS or a 4 tuned.
You did not menthion anything about rods. I really like the Unitech´s because they are nice, and light. IMO you do not want a lot of weight in those parts of the engine.
Finally I would recommend you to locate a 3½ lbs Berg achiever to regain the reciprocating weight of the rotating assembly so you can get that lower rpm stability back. - OR locate a german full weight flywheel and rebalance the assembly.

Hope this helps.

Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:42 am

Alstrup wrote:

I also notice in the original post that someone talked you into using a lightweight flywheel. Another thing I wouldnt do in a bus engine that size.

why not? i'm not trying to start a fight here, but I have one in my 1904 and really like it.

I put lightened flywheels on almost everything I build. some will say "they drive like a on and off switch" but I have never noticed it. what I have noticed is they tend to keep accelerating under load instead of "stalling" I guess you'd say. you know...when you hit the point where the pedal is on the floor but speed/rpm's are slow (if at all) to respond...a lightened FW seems to let the engine spool up more

D/A/N and I pulled a hill on a back road that was essentially straight up...in 4th doing 50 and still pulling.

like Modok said...if he wants what I have then he needs to copy it...right down to the dell 36's and 019. again, I can't speak for him but he seemed pretty eager to build a clone of what I have here.

if my memory serves me I also ran a tight deck (.040) but I also use premium fuel in it too

Sun Jun 28, 2020 10:57 am

Alstrup wrote: You did not menthion anything about rods. I really like the Unitech´s because they are nice, and light. IMO you do not want a lot of weight in those parts of the engine.

Thanks Alstrup and everybody else for all your help so far!! Skills is right.....I’ve gotten a lot of shitty advice and help along the way but all of this is going a long way towards helping reverse that. In terms of shitty help, the only reason why I have time to focus on this 1904 is because I’ve had a case out at a shop for going on 7 weeks and for the last 3 weeks they’ve been saying “you’re up next and should have it by the end of the week” :roll:.

Right now, the 1904 has stock rods. I bought a balanced set from DPR back when I bought the crank and the flywheel and then they balanced everything as a unit along with the pistons and pressure plate. Not sure if stock rods are problematic in a mini-stoker or not.

Next up are some deck height measurements which I hope to get to by the end of today. My preliminary measurements show that deck height is larger on one side of the motor than the other but I want to confirm that and then post the numbers.

If I’m gonna have to tear this POS apart, maybe it’s time for a 2110! I already needs heads. All I’d need extra is a crank, rods, and maybe a cam (which some are saying I might already need).

Stay focused, Daniel, stay focused.

Sun Jun 28, 2020 2:03 pm

At a certain speed the flywheel weight becomes less of an issue. At starts and low rpm power bleeds it makes a differencxe as to how steady the engine handles the load. A split bus is not the worst. In a heavy baywindow Westfalia it can make the difference of an annoying engine and a nice engine as long as we are talking sub 2 liter.
For instance. I just built and delivered a very nice 1776 sgl port engine with lots of goodies for a 1,5 ton bus. Still (modified) stock 34 mm Solex fed. 89 hp (Din) at 4400 rpm. Partly due to the stock flywheel and a good trim of course it´ll pull 3rd gear roundabouts from 950 rpm. If it had gotten a light flywheel it would have bucked and jerked if asked to do that.

To build a 2110 you will need other pistons as well if you want it nice and easy to build. Soon you will be building a brand new engine. That´s fine, as long as you are aware of it.

Sun Jun 28, 2020 2:42 pm

skills@eurocarsplus wrote: Alstrup wrote:

I also notice in the original post that someone talked you into using a lightweight flywheel. Another thing I wouldnt do in a bus engine that size.

why not? i'm not trying to start a fight here, but I have one in my 1904 and really like it.

I put lightened flywheels on almost everything I build. some will say "they drive like a on and off switch" but I have never noticed it....

Putting lightened flywheels on bus engines is a really weird place for you to make a stand, but even if it wasn't -->

Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:16 pm

After confirming that each cylinder was at TDC with a dial indicator, I took deck height measurements with a depth gauge. I zeroed it out on a gauge block after each try. Here’s what I’ve got for now:

#1 .066
#2 .066

#3 .055
#4 .058

So it’s not the same side to side. The compression ratio on my build sheet says 8.5 but I guess I still have to cc the heads to see if the builder cut the chambers to account for the different heights.

Still, what does this say about how far I’m going to have to tear shit down to make things right?

Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:38 pm

I would say continue to tear it down. You have it down this far so take off the pistons and cylinders then you can remove the rods and check the bearings and look through the cylinder holes and view the lifter heads.

Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:48 pm

Viking Funeral wrote:

Putting lightened flywheels on bus engines is a really weird place for you to make a stand, but even if it wasn't -->

odd comment...

I've never had that issue of bucking and jerking...I select the right gear for the situation. like I said...not trying to start a war.

Dan drove my bus...never bucked or jerked. dunno...I like it just fine.

anyway~

any shims under the cylinders, or just jug to cylinder? (with sealant, of course)

Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:53 am

skills@eurocarsplus wrote: Viking Funeral wrote:

Putting lightened flywheels on bus engines is a really weird place for you to make a stand, but even if it wasn't -->

odd comment...

I've never had that issue of bucking and jerking...I select the right gear for the situation. like I said...not trying to start a war.

Dan drove my bus...never bucked or jerked. dunno...I like it just fine.

anyway~

any shims under the cylinders, or just jug to cylinder? (with sealant, of course)

Looks like it’ s just sealant at the case end of the jug, no shims on either end. I looked at the build invoice and it doesn’t mention decking the case but it does say “face case seating surfaces” so something was cleaned up at the very least.

I’m trying to look through all the emails we exchanged, but the builder was on hotmail and I’m on gmail and it’s a bitch to search long email threads for keywords. I find it hard to believe that so much care would go into building the motor only for the deck height not to have been set correctly which makes me wonder if something got fucked up in the motor’s short life.

Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:21 pm

Ok, so I’m more than 6 months late to my own party but I started tearing down this motor a bit more after finally getting it on the stand. Thanks for that, sjbartnik! Also, I hope there’s someone still out there willing to take a look at this and let me know what they think and what my options are.

I took one last deck height measurement just to make sure I’m not crazy and it’s still off from 1/2 side to the 3/4 side. Then, I dug into the build notes and emails from the builder from back in 2013 and found that he had the cylinders trimmed at the end where they seal to the case in order to get rid of positive deck. So why is the deck height still uneven? :-k

I popped off the pistons and cylinders and I’ll be damned if it doesn’t look like the case was decked too. All the black shit is sealant, not leakage or anything else. So a decked case and trimmed cylinders but still uneven deck height?

I’m not sure what else I can do without tearing the short block all the way down but here are my questions:

1. What explains uneven deck height from side to side of the motor when the cylinders were cut and the case was decked?

2. Is there a smart way for a home “mechanic” to measure if all the cylinder ends were cut evenly or should I bring them to a shop for measurement?

3. Should I pull the case apart and measure from each of the cylinder sealing surfaces to the centerline of the case?

4. Is there a smart way for a home “mechanic” to do that or is this a job for a shop?

Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:28 pm

D/A/N wrote:
1. What explains uneven deck height from side to side of the motor when the cylinders were cut and the case was decked?

assuming the cylinders are cut to the exactly the same size, then the only explanation is the case was not decked on the CRANK centerline.

its not uncommon for people to just lay the case half flat on their mill and deck the cylinders like that...but its also not that uncommon to have a crank thats slight off-center from the case parting line.

heres an example of machining on the crank centerline.

Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:54 pm

There are quite a few reasons. Shim thickness difference, different piston heights, uneven machining side to side, different length rods, etc.

If that engine was sitting in front of me, I would find some shims that were .010 thinner, and run them on the 1-2 side. That would equal out most of your deck issues. You are gonna have a hard time accurately measuring stuff without tearing it all the way down and getting some fancy measuring tools.

At this point, that would be the easiest thing to do, and really there is nothing wrong with having two different size shims. I feel lucky if all my decks are within .005". If they are over that, I will start to juggle parts to even them out a bit.

Check your chamber volumes also to make sure they are the same.

Brian

Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:58 pm

how much can/do rod lengths and piston pin heights vary? (I don't mean that argumentatively, genuinely curious)

Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:02 pm

How far off was the difference in DH between the 1-2 and 3-4 sides?

Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:27 pm

sled wrote: how much can/do rod lengths and piston pin heights vary? (I don't mean that argumentatively, genuinely curious)

CB rods +/-.0010
AA rods +/-.0025
stock rebuilt +/-.015" I have had some really bad rebuilt rods.

Pin heights are usually all within .0020".

My guess is your case was machined .010 different side to side. Easy to do if they used one of those drill press boring "tools".

Brian