TheSamba.com :: View topic - Fitting Type 2 CV joints onto Type 1 Axles

Thu Aug 06, 2020 10:12 am

Has anybody machined back the shoulder on a type 1 joint to allow a type 2/4 CV joint to fit?

Will it make the axle weaker?

Thu Aug 06, 2020 10:56 am

People can get away with doing things and never have a problem.
As for machining the stop off the axle is was done in the early days of off road racing (late 1960s- early 1970s) and caused the axle to break. It the reason that SwayAway came out with the Chromoly axles without a inner stop.

Something that is being done now is the inner CV joint race is being milled out (removing material, for less spline area) for more travel for the CV on axle before hitting the snap ring or spiral lock on off road racing vehicles.
I think I would do that instead of machining the axles. This would allow for CV inner race to set over the inner stop on the axle an be able to use the snap ring to hold CV in place.
KarTek in Corona, CA does this work. I am sure any competent machine shop could do the same.

Thu Aug 06, 2020 11:31 am

I would suggest just getting Thing axles, or a floating axle shaft like Sway-A-Way to use with those CV's.

You can also purchase stub axle EMPI part 16-2304. These work great to use the 100mm CV's on a Bug. Be sure to get EMPI 16-2420 rear axle nuts that go with these.

We've used these on our race vehicle with excellent results.

Thu Aug 06, 2020 12:33 pm

You can also use Porsche 924 axles IIRC.

eQ

Thu Aug 06, 2020 2:06 pm

Thank you guy's for the quick responses.

So I'm running a Type 3 Notchback with a IRS gearbox fitted in with a 2056cc van engine.
For the off-road competition I use the car for, we are not allow to modify the trailing arm. So I have been trying to jack up the suspension, I do have the 181 axles but they are shorter than the beetle axles and so the joints start to grind when I jack the suspension up. I also have the floating axles but they also seems to grind the joints going around corners and sometime on acceleration.
So the idea was to try and use the beetle axles (which are longer than the 181's but with the type 2 CV's.
I do clock the inner and outer CV's correctly but would be keen to know why the CV's still grind on the floating axles. I use the Empi 98-5084 joints too.

Thu Aug 06, 2020 3:47 pm

Have you done any work on the CVs themself? like polishing the races or using a smaller CV balls? Also are you using the Chromoly CV cages?
When you using CVs at extreme angles they need to be worked on to the point that you would call worn out. They need to be a very loose fit, to the point they fall apart when you are handling them.
The aftermarket ones that Empi sells are like this.
There are people that use a .001" smaller size CV balls.
Also you need to use a good quality CV joint grease, like Sweepco.
KarTek is selling a Sweepco 164CV grease now that like a mixture of Sweepco 101 and Bel Ray anti seeze.

Are you using stock CV boots with the flanges attached? If so, you need to use aftermarket boots and flanges to get the clearance you need. They allow for more clearance for the joint when at extreme angles.

Thu Aug 06, 2020 4:22 pm

Sorry for the hijack, but...

I learned a new term recently: "plunge" type CV joints.

Aren't all of the CV joints we use in our so-called IRS applications "plunge" type CVs? Isn't that the concept of "floating" axles with our rear ends?

Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:41 pm

There are some CV used in applications that do not plunge. They have used them in off road racing. Larger diameter then a 935 CV.

Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:47 pm

To get a little more length from the 181 axles you can drill and tap an 8mm thread into the ends of the axles and use a bolt and washer to stop the axle pulling through the CV . Just make sure you have enough clearance with the suspension compressed . The same thing could be done to the bug axles .

Fri Aug 07, 2020 5:10 am

jsturtlebuggy wrote: Have you done any work on the CVs themself? like polishing the races or using a smaller CV balls? Also are you using the Chromoly CV cages?
When you using CVs at extreme angles they need to be worked on to the point that you would call worn out. They need to be a very loose fit, to the point they fall apart when you are handling them.
The aftermarket ones that Empi sells are like this.
There are people that use a .001" smaller size CV balls.
Also you need to use a good quality CV joint grease, like Sweepco.
KarTek is selling a Sweepco 164CV grease now that like a mixture of Sweepco 101 and Bel Ray anti seeze.

Are you using stock CV boots with the flanges attached? If so, you need to use aftermarket boots and flanges to get the clearance you need. They allow for more clearance for the joint when at extreme angles.

Hell Joseph,

Yes, I use the high performance Empi CV joint with the chromoly cage etc. And they are very loose.

Fri Aug 07, 2020 5:11 am

I will look as suggested here, different grease and the options to with mill out a small portion of the inner race spline or tap the end of the drive shaft and fit a bolt (will smooth the head of the bolt).

Many Thanks.

Fri Aug 07, 2020 10:22 am

So basically, any CV joint where the axle floats in and out of it is considered a plunging-type joint, yes? Makes sense :wink:

Fri Aug 07, 2020 11:31 am

A plunging CV the center star, cage, and balls move from side to side like you see with one on a VW.
A non plunging CV the balls and center star move as angle changes but stay inline with outer race is the best way I can describe it.
With them the axle moves on the splines in and out of CV. It like a slip joint on a drive shaft in a front engine car.

Fri Aug 07, 2020 12:16 pm

jsturtlebuggy wrote: A plunging CV the center star, cage, and balls move from side to side like you see with one on a VW.
A non plunging CV the balls and center star move as angle changes but stay inline with outer race is the best way I can describe it.
With them the axle moves on the splines in and out of CV. It like a slip joint on a drive shaft in a front engine car.
Wow, thank you, that is an explanation that I was unable to find on the Internet. I have to wrap my head around that.

I was curious about this awesome set of new (German) Luftringe Race CV joints I'm sitting on (late Bus) (and Thing?) 211 501 331B, and they definitely "plunge."

Fri Aug 07, 2020 1:03 pm

What sort of rear wheel travel do you have? I have 9" stop-to-stop with Thing axles and Type 1 trailing arms with no binding. I do not ride with my spring plates on the bottom stops. Down-travel is important too - keep the tire on the ground!

One thing I've seen is people trying to get the drive flanges on the transaxle as low as possible, maybe by tweaking mounts and getting the bellhousing end down. It's only a tiny amount before you may interfere with rear frame horns. This would give a few extra degrees that might serve you well.