TheSamba.com :: View topic - Oettinger TSV2000 engine: head recommendation?

Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:30 pm

I'm working on a project to build an Oettinger TSV2000 engine. I have the 78.4mm crankshaft, 90mm nikasil cylinders, 36-40PDSIT carburetors with manifolds, and the special belt driven oil cooler pump. Unfortunately, I don't have the heads for the engine. Data on the heads is somewhat sparse in that the intake valves were enlarged to 39mm while retaining 32mm exhaust valves along with other machining (presumably porting). Compression ratio was listed as 8.3:1. The earliest reference to the engine that I have found is from the 1973 Frankfurt Motorshow so I am assuming the heads would have been based (at least originally) on a German casting like the 113.101.375A or possible a type 3 casting.

If I were to try recreate a pair of these heads based on a German casting, which casting would you recommend? Is it possible to open up the combustion chambers of a German head to around 62cc for the compression ratio? Who would you recommend for doing the head work?

Similarly, if I were to expand the possibilities to other castings, what would be recommended?

Thanks!

Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:50 pm

OOOHHHH!!!!
That can be a VERY nice engine :D
Let me ask, - do you want to recreate it for classic reasons, or to fullfill your own desires, or are you ready to stray a little bit from the original? Reason I ask is, that with a few thought through changes that engine can run even better than it did when new.
I am not 100% sure if the very first ones had, but I know that the later TSV´s had VW 041 heads with exactly that, 39/32 mm valve combination. Those early 041 heads had a relatively short lifespan for varius reasons.

Soo, unless I had to recreate it as close as possible to specs I would do it a little different.
So let us hear your plans 8)

Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:59 pm

I was leaning towards recreating the classic engine, but I am open to ideas to make it better, particularly with reliability.

I haven't seen any information about Oettinger changing the camshaft , so I assume it ran the stock cam. I know they offered their own grind on earlier engines, but again I haven't seen any indication of that on the TSV2000. The hp and torque figures seem to indicate a stock cam as well. I've toyed with the idea of running an Iskenderian 234Max camshaft since it was available during the period (originally from the early 1960s is my understanding), but I am still undecided. The Iskenderian camshaft is similar to a Scat C25, but with more lift.

Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:05 pm

Its very late here, so it will have to wait till tomorrow.

Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:42 pm

would someone mind explaining to me what exactly this engine is? is it a vw race engine? thanks you

Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:25 pm

Okrasa, the name of the famous VW tuning company from the 50s and 60s is actually an acronym. Oettinger Kraftfahrtechnische Spezial Anstalt, which in English is Oettinger Automotive Special Institute/Establishment/Shop. Gerhard Oettinger, who was an engineer founded the company. Here in the US, we stopped regularly hearing about Okrasa products in the mid-60s, but they kept making tuning products for VWs for the European market. They are actually still around today although they no longer support air cooled engines. I'm not sure when they transitioned from calling themselves OKRASA to Oettinger.

The TSV2000 engine was the top of the line of their offerings in the 70s/early 80s. It came in two versions (that I know of): one rare version with some form of zenith fuel injection (that I haven't been able to find much about) and a more common version with dual solex 36-40 PDSIT carburetors (same as used on European carbureted type 4 motors). The power output wasn't phenomenal at only about 85hp at about 4k rpm. One British car magazine opined that the power figure was intentionally conservative. Cars prepped by Oettinger with these engines would get a taller 4th gear (0.82) unless the owner planned on towing a trailer in which case the transmission was left alone. Top speed was about 100mph. The engines were mostly fitted to super beetles and convertibles although their brochures did mention that they could be installed in any beetle except for the 1200 (I'm not sure on why the 1200 was excluded). Most examples that I have seen online have been installed in convertibles. I suspect the super beetle and convertibles were preferred because of irs rear suspension. Here in the US all of our VWs got IRS 1969 and later, but in Europe only super beetles, convertibles, autosticks, and 181 (1973+) got IRS.

Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:09 am

Hi!

I have a complete TSV2000 engine(edit:in parts!) that came with cracked heads.The stock TSV combustion chamber is large,almost like a Semi-Hemi chamber.Valve sizes are indeed 39X32mm.I still have them.They are short-reach plug head and thats probably why they cracked.I'm not going to use those heads but reworked 040's and a Novack 272deg cam which will hopefully stretch the powerband.

Cheers,Arnoud

Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:22 am

That's awesome, I think we would all love to see pictures! What casting are the heads based on?

Mon Oct 19, 2020 3:13 am

Ahh, yes, well, first things first.

I am not sure whether Volkswagenwerk approached Oettinger for a performance option, or Oettinger presented the performance option to das Werk. I am leaning towards the first.
The Oettinger engines were built the way they were for several reasons. One was that they was to be sold through the VW dealerships, which meant that they had to clear the emission tests of the day. Also, there was a Db level for the exhaust, and finally, everything had to be on the shelf at VW spareparts centre.
The camshaft is a stock late model (4 rivet) Cylinderheads were (at least in the ´74-on models) VW Brazil. If memory serves the part number is 041 101 375B. The heads were slightly cleaned up on the intake side while the exhaust side was left alone. Chambers were opened to a, shall we call it large bowl, slightly in the direction of Porsche´s dome shaped chambers.
From what I have seen there were more than one exhaust option ranging from a modified stock to a Sebring type muffler. The latter - can - be a retrofit to some vehichles.

The reason to why these engines often had a limited lifespan was primarily that with todays eyes there was a few shortcuts made in order to "fit" everything within the existing VW program.
First, the air supply in the convertibles especially was not adressed, so the engines overheated when the top was down especially and you used the power in spite of the Nikasil cylinders. Second, the modded stock exhaust was rather restricticive at WOT. Third, the reshaped chamber turned out to be not so good temperaturewise at WOT, but OK at lower rpms, but the engine could pass emission tests this way with the knowledge and options at the time. (You have to remember these engines are up to 50 years old. We have learned a thing or two in the meantime)

- Now, for a slightly optimised Oettinger, the first thing to adress is the camshaft. If you want the basic behaviure of the TSV, but with a little wider powerband and some more grunt the Nowak 272 or the Pauter B4 262 or even the CB 2280 camshaft would be good options.
Whether to use a set of 040 heads and rework or use an aftermarket type with 3/4" plug threads is up to the guy who´s paying the bills. Personally I would use the latter. Since the engine also still use(d) stock heaterboxes the exhaust valve should stay 32/33 mm.
No matter which muffler is chosen it should definitely be a freer flowing unit. A totally gutted and reworked stock muffler can be sufficient, and work quite well actually if done right. If you choose a shelf solution the VS SS143 or the BAS Customsport was most likely the first choices due to "looks". Next was the CSP Street sport.

Like we have vaguely touched in another thread recently, the 041 heads are a little tricky to get good and long lasting performance out of withouty overheating them. It is doable, but you need to know how to make and shape the exhaust port. Cam choice also plays a role.

Done right it is "easy" to increase hp to the 100 - 110 hp window along with a massive improvement in torque with out sacrificing the appearance and general behaviure of the engine.

Mon Oct 19, 2020 3:24 am

Hi again! :D :D

After a bit of digging on the garage attic I found them.
Note that the exhaust-valveguides are cut flush with the port-valvestems are 9mm.The heads are 35 and 50-series castings but have the same stamping(#54).
If there are any questions let me know.

Cheers,Arnoud

Mon Oct 19, 2020 3:49 am

Hello.
Thanks for those pics Arnoud. Those are 043 heads, meaning ´73-on. Apparently several head models were used over the years.
On second glance, those heads have been reworked at a later date. Those valve guides are not VW. I do not think the exh. guides were cut flush ab Oettinger´s shop.

Mon Oct 19, 2020 5:01 am

Awesome, thank you guys for the explanation. I have heard about okra but havent really looked into it. Sounds expensive to me :lol:

Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:45 pm

Okra is used in gumbo, not acvw engines.
Ps its not that expensive.

Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:56 pm

calvinater wrote: Okra is used in gumbo, not acvw engines.
Ps its not that expensive.

I know,that was the point :D guess no one got the joke :cry:

I thought this okrasa stuff wasn't for the average cheap vw guy but I dont have any experience with this sort of stuff so I wouldnt know. Sounds cool for a vintage speed kind of car

Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:57 pm

Please let me explain the different TS/TSV2000 versions.

Oettinger started at the beginning of the 70ies standardising their engine program.

The top-engine was the TS2000, fitted with the well-known 78,4mm Alfing/Okrasa-crank and the 90mm Nikasil-cylinders. Heads were genuine Oettinger with valve sizes of 38/34mm. There were 3 different cams available. Two of them were oettinger special grinds made out of genuine VW cams, with more duration and lesser lift, the third was a Schleicher (RO158). Carbs were mostly Solex 40PBI.

In 1971 the engine had to pass the "Europa-test", the first pollution control test in Europe. For this reason the carbs became the 36/40PDSIT, the only cam with a positive test was one of the reworked VW-cams. All other engine components were left untouched. This engine was now called the TSV2000.

Shortly after that, Oettinger made tests with genuine "041"-heads (39/32 valves) and found no remarkable differences in power compared to their own heads, and for the reason they had a lot of genuine German VW heads as leftovers from the built engines, they fitted them with 39mm inlet valves and worked them slightly over. Since circa 1972 these heads are standart on the TSV-engines, the Oettinger-casted heads were offered as an expensive option. Both head types are allowed on pollution controlled vehicles in Europe.

As for the cam: You can not separate the Oettinger-cam from a genuine VW only by eye, you have to measure the ground radius and the lift. The cams have asymmetric durations, the later one had more outlet duration because of the smaller outlet valve.

I'm actually working on two of these engines, one with the Schleicher 158 and the other one is a Oettinger grind.

The heads I prefer for the dished pistons are genuine VW 070 castings, milled 2.5mm or a tenth of inches deeper and rework the chambers, to get a compression ratio in the 9,0-9,5:1 range, and give them a good valve job. On other heads you will have to cut the last cooling fin for this compression ratio, or it will interfere with the cylinder.

Normal power output of these reworked engines is around 110-115 DIN-HP, torque 185-190 Nm with a very wide useable power band.

Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:36 pm

Hello Vee.
Frankly I was not aware that Okrasa did make changes to the later cams. I stand corrected. I did see a RO158 cam in one, but I honestly thought that had been installed at a later date.

Mon Oct 19, 2020 6:01 pm

Very cool information, and engine(s).

H2OSB

Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:54 pm

Hello Vee,

Is there a way of telling which is the Oettinger cam?The parts of my TSV engine got seperated on the attic over the years :roll: :roll:
What do you know of the TSV-HSI?

Schöne Gruss aus die Niederlanden!

Arnoud

Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:46 am

Just to clarify, the carbs you mention are not the stock carbs on a Euro type 4, which are 32-34 PDSITs, with the 34 mm throttle. And lots of emissions stuff, compared to the type 3, and a separate common idle system. I doubt you want those.

Tue Oct 20, 2020 3:57 am

Those are the "bus carbs" The ones used on the TSV engines were the 36-40 PDSIT which were used on the 412S engines and some BMW engines IIRC