TheSamba.com :: View topic

Fri Nov 13, 2020 12:49 am

I am with Mark.

On my vw I use a MANN filter. Anti drainback valve works great.

On my 318 Dodge Dart I use motorcraft. I found out the hard was just how BAD the autozone filters let oil drain back into the pan over night. Motorcraft filter valve works very very well. The worst thing you can do is not have oil quickly during starts...a good filter is one that retains its oil for a good start and filters properly. I have found the MANN filter to be great and recently the motorcraft filter too. Very impressed and stay away from autozone brand filters.

I do not have info on when filters clog and bypass because my cars get new oil and filters every 3k miles no matter what.

-Frank

Fri Nov 13, 2020 3:26 am

Only MANN W940/1

Fri Nov 13, 2020 7:36 am

Just for background info.....

Mann filterwerks (old name...changed many years ago to Mann + Hummel) bought Purolater in a joint venture with Bosch in 2006. Then fully acquired all of it in 2013. That company name is now Mann+Hummel-Purolater LLC

It also acquired Affinia in 2016.....which means that Mann + Hummel-Purolater......owns WIX and Filtron.....among many others. There are so many filtration companies owned by Mann of so many types....air, gas, water, fuel, industrial.....I cant even keep track.

Dave is correct that there are only a handful of "paper mills" world wide that produce filtration paper.....but bear in mind that it does not mean that they produce the same spec of filter paper for all filter manufacturers. And.....virtually none of them just use the raw paper as it comes to them.

The converting process includes a huge range of treatments.....and not all oil filters even use actual "paper". Filters like the NAPA Platinum are using a "synthetic" paper.....which is really a plastic or vacuum coated paper blend.

Mann makes very good filters. There has been a huge range of threads of people bitching about them mainly because....like with every brand.....there are models that do not use an anti-drain back valve (just do your research and choose one that does)......or has this filtration level or that filtration level or this flow rate or that flow rate.

Just research and use one that fits your engines needs.

I think a more accurate way to say the same thing that Dave was getting at....is to say that there are maybe only about 3-5 major filter manufacturers in the world....who are actually owned by themselves and using all of their own technology.....and/or.....probably about 7 out of 10 filters you buy.....no matter the brand.....are made by the same company. Ray

Fri Nov 13, 2020 7:37 am

raygreenwood wrote: I have quite a bit of agreement with VWracerdave.....as I have actually manufactured paper. for a living.....and currently have clients that manufacture paper and filtration media......so I know a bit about it.

That being said....61 microns sucks.

Understand that 0.001" = 25.4 microns. For reference..... 0.0001" = 2.54 microns.

So what is the oil tolerance on your main and rod bearings? About 0.002"?

Thats 50.8 microns. You dont need a filter that allows 61 microns rocks through it. But about 25-40um (microns) will be just fine.

But back to what Dave stated about the paper. Its NOT....NOT...just about the paper quality.
The filter paper does not filter 25um (for example) by having 25um holes. Its about the DESIGN of the filter, and the shape and angle of the pleats....and the direction and flow rate of the oil ACROSS its surface before its forced through it.

*****SNIP*****

Its worth looking at its level of filtration.....but as long as its about 1/3 less than your smallest oil tolerance....its fine. Ray

This is the sort of reply I was hoping for! Thank you! It makes perfect sense.

So looking at the filters mentioned, and the ones I was looking at, it looks like the Fram (Edit- I do not intend to use Fram) PH8A equivalents Wix 51515 (non-R version), Napa 1515 or Napa 41515 at 23 microns, Motorcraft FL-1A (20 microns) or Mobil-1 M1-301A (30 microns?) Would all be quality choices. That Motorcraft seems very nice, for sure! 8)

I think I'll grab a couple 41515 filters to begin for break in with and then grab the motorcraft after the engine is broken in.

Fri Nov 13, 2020 7:44 am

Lingwendil wrote: raygreenwood wrote: I have quite a bit of agreement with VWracerdave.....as I have actually manufactured paper. for a living.....and currently have clients that manufacture paper and filtration media......so I know a bit about it.

That being said....61 microns sucks.

Understand that 0.001" = 25.4 microns. For reference..... 0.0001" = 2.54 microns.

So what is the oil tolerance on your main and rod bearings? About 0.002"?

Thats 50.8 microns. You dont need a filter that allows 61 microns rocks through it. But about 25-40um (microns) will be just fine.

But back to what Dave stated about the paper. Its NOT....NOT...just about the paper quality.
The filter paper does not filter 25um (for example) by having 25um holes. Its about the DESIGN of the filter, and the shape and angle of the pleats....and the direction and flow rate of the oil ACROSS its surface before its forced through it.

*****SNIP*****

Its worth looking at its level of filtration.....but as long as its about 1/3 less than your smallest oil tolerance....its fine. Ray

This is the sort of reply I was hoping for! Thank you! It makes perfect sense.

So looking at the filters mentioned, and the ones I was looking at, it looks like the Fram PH8A equivalents Wix 51515 (non-R version), Napa 1515 or Napa 41515 at 23 microns, Motorcraft FL-1A (20 microns) or Mobil-1 M1-301A (30 microns?) Would all be quality choices. That Motorcraft seems very nice, for sure! 8)

I think I'll grab a couple 41515 filters to begin for break in with and then grab the motorcraft after the engine is broken in.

Go and check the spec for the W940/1

Fri Nov 13, 2020 7:50 am

Lingwendil wrote: raygreenwood wrote: I have quite a bit of agreement with VWracerdave.....as I have actually manufactured paper. for a living.....and currently have clients that manufacture paper and filtration media......so I know a bit about it.

That being said....61 microns sucks.

Understand that 0.001" = 25.4 microns. For reference..... 0.0001" = 2.54 microns.

So what is the oil tolerance on your main and rod bearings? About 0.002"?

Thats 50.8 microns. You dont need a filter that allows 61 microns rocks through it. But about 25-40um (microns) will be just fine.

But back to what Dave stated about the paper. Its NOT....NOT...just about the paper quality.
The filter paper does not filter 25um (for example) by having 25um holes. Its about the DESIGN of the filter, and the shape and angle of the pleats....and the direction and flow rate of the oil ACROSS its surface before its forced through it.

*****SNIP*****

Its worth looking at its level of filtration.....but as long as its about 1/3 less than your smallest oil tolerance....its fine. Ray

This is the sort of reply I was hoping for! Thank you! It makes perfect sense.

So looking at the filters mentioned, and the ones I was looking at, it looks like the Fram PH8A equivalents Wix 51515 (non-R version), Napa 1515 or Napa 41515 at 23 microns, Motorcraft FL-1A (20 microns) or Mobil-1 M1-301A (30 microns?) Would all be quality choices. That Motorcraft seems very nice, for sure! 8)

I think I'll grab a couple 41515 filters to begin for break in with and then grab the motorcraft after the engine is broken in.

Yes.....but if you MUST get the Fram....get their upper tier version....like Fram Extra guard or Fram Ultra synthetic.

Their basic "orange can" Fram filters....have had long time, off again/on again issues with cheap filtration media paper that breaks down and gets "blow throughs"....and sheds fibers.

The gist is that the differences in oil filter quality does not just have to do with advertised or actual micron rating.
Basic Fram and some other brands....have had container crimping issues with blowouts over the years (I blew out two of them in 20° weather years back.....in a Chevrolet). Basic Fram.....and some ther brands and even specific part #'s within brands thought to be excellent.....have had outer seal blowout or seal extrusion issues.

Some have had issues with poor seal material for modern or synthetic oils.

So.....one of the best resources for finding a brand AND part # that seems to have no issues with acvw's......is probably right here in the forums.

Pick a brand and part # ....look at its advertized spec.....make sure you are happy.....and then search it here. Ray

Fri Nov 13, 2020 8:04 am

I have a Fram but do not intend to use them. I'm not personally a fan of theirs.

richierich wrote:
Go and check the spec for the W940/1

I can't seem to find anything other than that it's commonly used in hydraulic applications and has a relief valve that opens at 2.5PSI.

From past experience Mann makes good stuff though, so I'll look into them more too.

Fri Nov 13, 2020 11:07 am

I buy Mann, but i also don't give it that much thought. Now that I read up, I'm not crazy about the 2.5 bar bypass. But I think they have good micron ratings.

Fri Nov 13, 2020 11:55 am

The Purolater filters have also been excellent.

Ray

Fri Nov 13, 2020 11:56 am

There are 3 types of oil filters, and they are build/designed different.

Assembly line filters. These are made for the engine break in process. They are just painted white with no printing and come 300 in a bulk crate. You can not buy these anywhere.

Dealership/fleet maintenance filters. Sometimes a tiny bit better quality for heavy duty use. They might have a part number printed on them and usually come 12 in a box for bulk use. If you buy a filter at a new car parts dept and they hand you a generic filter not in a box then you got a dealership filter. They may sell you a retail filter.

Replacement/retail. What you buy at a store in an individual box and all printed up nice and pretty.

Fri Nov 13, 2020 12:47 pm

FreeBug wrote: I buy Mann, but i also don't give it that much thought. Now that I read up, I'm not crazy about the 2.5 bar bypass. But I think they have good micron ratings.

The bypass valve in the 940/1 operates at 1.2 bar or 17 psi and has a 50 litre per minute flow

Fri Nov 13, 2020 2:07 pm

richierich wrote: FreeBug wrote: I buy Mann, but i also don't give it that much thought. Now that I read up, I'm not crazy about the 2.5 bar bypass. But I think they have good micron ratings.

The bypass valve in the 940/1 operates at 1.2 bar or 17 psi and has a 50 litre per minute flow

Yep...its a good filter. Back before the internet and eve then....it was sometimes hard to find if you did not have a great shop locally.

But this is a hard deal to beat:

https://www.ecstuning.com/b-mann-parts/oil-filter-...QvEALw_wcB

$29.75 for a pack of five. Thats pretty good really!
Ray

Fri Nov 13, 2020 3:05 pm

OK wondering, I have been using Mobil One oil in my bug for years and the Mobil One Synthetic oil filter.

Never any problem and in the past have used different length oil filters. I think I did it once with a Mobil One Filter.

Anyway how does Mobil One filters, Stack up, to other.

Fri Nov 13, 2020 5:58 pm

Mobil One is very good IMO.

WIX was tops 10-20 years ago.

K&N was very good 10 years ago, but they have cheapened.
Things change.

Sat Nov 14, 2020 11:31 am

Like others I have gone thru the array of filters over the years, in many different vehicles. In some vehicles I’ve noticed a difference and some I have not.

These days I use the WIX 51515 in my bus and a Fram Ultra Synthetic in my Nissan Frontier. 🤷‍♂️

Sat Nov 14, 2020 11:58 am

This thread reminds me of the time I went about 150 thousand miles on my Jeep Comanche without an oil change before the filter finally plugged up. I got 225k total miles it’s just that I did change the oil a few times when it was new.

I brought it to the shop because it lost oil pressure, was told bearing were loose . When I got home with the truck I had some weird revelation hunch and I swapped out the filter. Started right up with great oil pressure and I put another few thousand miles on it before it got neglected and died.

Sat Nov 14, 2020 12:21 pm

Mobil 1 does not have a full synthetic media oil filter from my understanding.

Sat Nov 14, 2020 3:53 pm

Is there something good about full synthetic material?

In an airfilter it can be a good thing since it isn't harmed by moisture, but I don't worry about that in an oil filter.

Sun Nov 15, 2020 10:50 pm

modok wrote: Is there something good about full synthetic material?

In an airfilter it can be a good thing since it isn't harmed by moisture, but I don't worry about that in an oil filter.

The synthetic medias.....some say they filter finer (most do not). What the fully synthetic medias do have is a lot more capacity for holding a larger volume of crap. They have a lot more microscopic pores.

They are designed....with those stupidly long oil change intervals for synthetic oil in mind that too many dealers "used" to force on car owners in their new car warranties.

The stupid practice of running full synthetic oils 10-12,000 miles...has quietly been "re-thinked"...and moved away from in modern cars.

The problem is NOT that synthetic oil won't continue to lubricate for 12,000 miles. The problem is that it keeps all of the silt and soot suspended...unlike dino oils.
This allows it to become acidic...and allows the suspended crap to get baked onto any metal surface that is not constantly submerged in oil.

The acidic thing....destroys nylon and synthetic timing chain guides.

As "standard" car warranties in the past 10 years have moved from 35k miles to 50k miles and higher....the dealer networks have been finding that the piddling amount they save by only doing 3 oil changes during a 35k warranty period.....comes back to bite them on the ass on cars that have 50-100k mile warranties....as the timing chain guides start coming apart at 75k on cars that have excessively long oil change intervals...especially when they have mixed season weather and lots of stop and go traffic.

So.....no....synthetic filter media is not especially useful in my opinion.

In fact....synthetic oil change intervals have pretty much gone back to the levels that synthetic oils first recommended like 45 years ago when Mobil 1 came out....roughly twice the lifespan of conventional oils....so about 6,000 to 7,000 miles.

Just use a good normal filter. Ray

Sun Nov 15, 2020 11:36 pm

The synthetic media filters were probably designed for industrial hydraulic machinery use and not necessarly auto engines. The hydraulic systems fluid is thinner and doesn't get hot like an engine oil, and the fluid isn't changed very often like motor oil is. Marketing geniuses figured out another way to make money was selling these more expensive synthetic filters to the anal car guys.