TheSamba.com :: View topic

Tue Dec 22, 2020 12:30 am

Am I losing my mind I have a 2276 engine I’ve always used a crossbar linkage since the 80’s basically all they had back then I decided to try the so call better linkage style I went with csp bellcrank after spending over 200.00 for linkage a different fuel pump block off since I had the one that doubles as coil mount which is in the way, and new Jaycee coil mount. After spending the day relocating and re-running wires got the linkage installed started it up at one carb ran like it was wide open adjusted the rods completely out cards were not close all the way came to the conclusion the rods were too short spent the day trying to get it to work put everything back the way it was with the crossbar to get the motor to run properly again Am I missing something?

Tue Dec 22, 2020 12:38 am

Sorry have 44idfs with offset manifolds I’ve had 2 different crossbar linkages on it redline and CB and not times had to get a 19 inch crossbar instead of the 18’s they came with so the ball ends weren’t threaded so far out to reach the base plates

Tue Dec 22, 2020 5:13 am

The bell crank should push not pull. It would only hold the throttle open if they were too long. Winding rods out opens, shortening them closes.

Tue Dec 22, 2020 6:53 am

Did you put the linkage arm on the throttle shaft in the wrong orientation?

Pictures would help

Tue Dec 22, 2020 7:34 am

txoval wrote: Did you put the linkage arm on the throttle shaft in the wrong orientation?

Pictures would help

I’m wondering the same.

Tue Dec 22, 2020 2:31 pm

Sorry didn’t take a picture of it installed but both ball levers were 45deg down and facing in however you said shortening rods closes carb but when I shorten one side it pulls other side open? Do I have the threaded end backwards they came already together and the longer rod is on the left if you’re facing the motor .I’ll try and post a pic of the motor as is maybe one of the carb arms is backwards?

Tue Dec 22, 2020 2:40 pm

Check here:

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5732116

Tue Dec 22, 2020 3:17 pm

Perfect that’s exactly how I set it up sorry guys I was pulling my hair out on what seemed simple I was using the words PULL carb open when in fact it is push push sorry for the confusion.ive looked it over so when the rods are all the way out at the end of threads it barely snaps on both sides n pushes one side barely open if I shorten the open side rod to close carb the center pull rotates towards the shroud in effect pushing other side open so it’s like there’s no adjustment available to rotate center counterclockwise to pull both sides closed .hope that Made a little more sense seems like if one of the rods was longer I could screw it and then snap it on and have some adjustment on both rods to even it out

Tue Dec 22, 2020 3:19 pm

Whoops, my bad.

I hate to say this, but guys, Push-Push? Really? Yuck!

If you center the linkage, so it is halfway between the two carbs longitudinally (half the offset), and get all the angles right, preferably with the linkage pivot ball-joints seperated apart by the same distance as the carb offset, you can have a really nice, even, Pull-Pull system. It's a lot of work, but I'm glad I did it. I had to order the left-handed die, though, and it was a lot of work.

Study the stock Type3 system, and emulate that, it was worked out by actual engine-ears.

Having said that, follow what Modok is saying, it will probably work just fine.

Tue Dec 22, 2020 3:43 pm

CSP do sell longer rods, or you could just make some. I’ve run CSP linkage for many years on IDF’s and IDA’s and when set up right they are hard to beat imo. Just remember to balance the carbs when the engines hot

Tue Dec 22, 2020 3:49 pm

Thanks so much guys those are all the answers I was looking for I don’t know why I thought since it was made in Germany for a Vw It was just plug and play and would snap right on LOL I’ll give it another go this weekend and update happy holidays merry Christmas guys

Sat Dec 26, 2020 7:43 pm

Ok so I’m not crazy I a longer rod from an IDA kit that gave me overall about an extra 1/4 inch of adjustment which works fine now EXCEPT now I have the 2200rpm stumble I didn’t have before but only for a second Seems to be a lot smoother after that. Maybe since the linkage isn’t slopping around now at the joints it’s uncovered a minor flaw.I readjusted the valves and checked the timing and re-sync the carbs everything good I’ll check the Jets again tomorrow. All in all looks like it will be a better option and stay in sync longer appreciate all the feedback here’s a couple pics of it installed

Sat Dec 26, 2020 7:46 pm

And yess I’m pulling off the crossbar plates had to save something for the next day

Sun Dec 27, 2020 3:51 am

I’m sure others with disagree but the CSP linkage is so bardic it’s amazing. Berg linkage looks cool but it’s vastly over engineered for something so simple. ( I love berg stuff btw)

Sun Dec 27, 2020 9:54 am

I like the CSP linkage. Simple and has zero slop. Easy to sync up. Seems to stay that way too.

I have used "stand off" or "thread extensions" , also known as thread couplings.
to make the arms longer.
Doing a motor right now that the arms were a bit too short on. I simply added 1" couplings (with a short stud to mate them. Works perfectly and has the same adjustability. I would post a pic, but they make it too hard here.

The Berg linkage is Bardic...

The Z shaped pushrods that have both right hand threads on each end don't allow for fine tuning. NO way to sync a set of IDA's properly.
And I hope that your fan shroud doesn't move around.
The bearings are sloppy and the goofy double center arm with all the complexity makes me scratch my head.
Old-school.. I get it.. Lacking... yes...

Sun Dec 27, 2020 12:42 pm

Ohio Tom wrote: I like the CSP linkage. Simple and has zero slop. Easy to sync up. Seems to stay that way too.

I have used "stand off" or "thread extensions" , also known as thread couplings.
to make the arms longer.
Doing a motor right now that the arms were a bit too short on. I simply added 1" couplings (with a short stud to mate them. Works perfectly and has the same adjustability. I would post a pic, but they make it too hard here.

The Berg linkage is Bardic...

The Z shaped pushrods that have both right hand threads on each end don't allow for fine tuning. NO way to sync a set of IDA's properly.
And I hope that your fan shroud doesn't move around.
The bearings are sloppy and the goofy double center arm with all the complexity makes me scratch my head.
Old-school.. I get it.. Lacking... yes...

Agree 100%, back in the day there was nothing else about but today there are many better options. I’ve got a CSP with ida’s and I think I’ve had to adjust it 3 times in 2 years? I had a cb hex on some 40’s years ago and that was junk too, the end of the hex bar wore egg on the ball mounts on the filters and was scrap at that point as the carbs didn’t open equally no matter how much I tweaked it.

Sun Dec 27, 2020 1:50 pm

With the CSP bellcrank linkage, it looks like the 3/4 side rod has a greater angle then the 1/2 side. Is that correct? And if so, how can you get the carbs opening at the same rate when they cant open at the same rate cause of the different angles?

Sun Dec 27, 2020 4:02 pm

Hello.
Jeff, you are correct.
dntchav, It is quite normal that at least one rod is too short. It is du to the fact that the set is designed for their own manifolds and not everybody else´s (which to some extend is understandable.) You can order longer rods, no problem, exept if you can´t order locally.
The push pull systems are very popular for their simplicity and "out of the way look" Personally I do not like them, no matter the brand. Due to the issues with angled and unequall length of the rods you CANNOT have an engine that is in sync cold and warm. Also, around ½ throttle there WILL be a difference in throttle opening side to side. Also at WOT if the center piece is not angled correct. Most people do not seem to care about that and they just use them.
Berg´s are sturdy, but has the issues Tom menthions, which is a real PITA. You - can - actually get it right, but that involves some twisting and bending the arms to get to that point. :roll: One advantage with them is that they normally clear the deck lid in pre 60 cars.
CSP hex bar system is good. Just remember to lube the pivot balls on a regular basis. When they get worn, and they do, i replace them with quality heim joints. Then they last almost for ever.
Empi was actually going in the right direction when they reverse engineered the CB Hex bar. But for some reason they dropped the ball 25 yards before the finish line, which, again, made it sub par. Such a pity.
Wire pull. While I personally loathe the looks of the Sync link I have to admit that it is a pretty good system functionwise.
Logmech is a PITA to install, but once its there its there and works well, also over time.

Sun Dec 27, 2020 4:20 pm

I took (2) 1/4" X 3" SS bolts and drilled and tapped it to match the threads on the carburetor end. The cut the 'heads' and external threads off of the bolts to make these spacers. Then installed a stud between the two, works great

Sun Dec 27, 2020 5:00 pm

Alstrup I see what you mean I synced the linkage motor warm as suggested next morning when it was cold it coughed and spitted I checked linkage with a magnifying glass lol and I could see where 3/4 side was a tiny bit open and was exaggerated when barely opening the throttle more I thought it might have moved so I re synced it But then when the motor I was hot it popped and coughed on deceleration so I re-synced it hot. So I’m assuming on a coldstart I’ll need to let it idle for about 10 minutes then it will be fine but hearing you talk about the angle of the rods I’m wondering if that’s why I now have that stumble at 22 to 2500 RPM where as I didn’t have it before with the crossbar . I’ve always used the crossbar but it was getting sloppy so I thought I would try something different usually I just replace the bushings and it’s good till they get worn again then like most people said you’ll never get it set right once the slop sets in.Has anyone ever tried that bearing upgrade for the crossbar looks like it would maintain integrity better than the ball and bushing ends but It’s a hard sell for me $80-$100 just to replace the ends of the crossbar seems a bit extreme