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Thu Mar 24, 2022 1:12 pm

Close to making a decision on heads for my 2332 weekend driver. I’m looking at either the CB UltraMags, MiniWedges, Wedgeports, or TimmsStage 2s. The cam is a 86b with CB 1.4 rockers. Pushrods are Aircooled.net aluminum and lifters are Porsche 356 39gram.

I’m wondering with this light valvetrain could I run single valve springs. I saw in a previous thread where UK Luke 72 was using single valve spring in a 2276 also with a 86b from Statesidetuning.
Stateside lists their single valve spring at 1.5”*111lbs. and at .550*263lbs. As a comparison the GB237A dual valve springs are list at 280-290lbs at about the same height.
Are there any other single springs….perhaps beehives that fit the prescription. I’m thinking eliminating excessive valve spring pressure means less heat and easy on the valve train. If l’m over thinking this or why fix what ain’t broken let me know!
Also thinking about swapping the 94s for a set of tw 92s to go turbo in the future.

Thu Mar 24, 2022 1:33 pm

Beehives could work. Ask Dan Ruddock about his. He has 2 different versions/sets for different apps.

Thu Mar 24, 2022 2:05 pm

Don't forget your titanium retainers..

Thu Mar 24, 2022 5:22 pm

Pulled this from an engine build thread:

Alstrup wrote:
Dan Ruddock wrote:
Yes in my opinion, anything more than .430" lift is too much for singles. My spring kit will not work with panchitos if the single groove valves have not been swapped out for stock style three groove valves.

Dan

That depends heavily on the cam profile, lifter, push rod weight and rocker ratio.
Say the above menthioned 218 cam w approx 0,455" lift at the valve. Use lifters in the 70-80 gr. max weight range, quality aluminum pr´s, bolted shafts with stock rockers and some decent elephant feet adjusters. Then couple it to the menthioned Panchito´s with single springs that has 220 lbs @ 1" and installed at approx 1,44" with 140 lbs seat pressure. Such a set up will rev to approx 67-6800 rpm without valve float. By then the engine has stopped pulling long ago. Normal shift range is about 6300 with spirited driving. Set the rev limiter to 6500
Then there is no need what so ever for dual springs. It´s a left over from when Engle cams were dominant.
Same type of set up, but with sgl Oteva S90 springs and a Raptor 008 cam w. 1,4 rockers lifting the valve 0,540" revs to 7 grand without valve float.

My point is, dimension the spring pressure to what you really need with the parts you aree using. by doing that you release more power, get a quieter running engine, reduce wear and reduce heat. Win win in my book.

I don't disagree, Yes they can work well with the right setup, but they just don't last very long has been my experience. Maybe this is because most singles available here in the states are just not very good. The Oteva S90 springs are not readily available here in the states.

This indicates that single Oteva S90 springs with a lightweight valvetrain can perform up to 7000rpm w/o valve float.

Thu Mar 24, 2022 5:23 pm

39 gram 356 lifter? :shock: I have an oem 356 lifter and it weighs 71.

Here are the things that are hard on your valve train, too much valve clearance, valve float, geo setup wrong, cams with poorly designed lash ramps (the 86b is not one of them), cutting guide bosses for dual springs can and has caused guides to come loose over time, this is more common when head temps are not kept in check, cam and rocker combos that are just too aggressive, DO NOT REV THE ENGINE BEYOND WHAT THE SPRINGS CAN HANDLE.

Not enough spring will do more damage than too much. If the valve is allowed to slam down on the seat without the cams lash ramps catching it first all kinds of bad thing happen. This is why it is important to have a ridged pushrod, best to sacrifice some added weight for a pushrod that can stop the valve. If the pushrod deflects too much the lash ramps designed into the cam are not as effective at slowing the valve down just before it is set down on the seat. In other words you don't want parts crashing into each other.

Spring harmonics are also a problem. Regular HD single are the worst at this, they have no dampening at all and typically don't last very long, the harder they are worked the shorter the life. When the spring goes into bad harmonics it looses it's ability to control the valve train. Beehives that are progressively wound (not all are) do a much better job at controlling harmonics. Stock VW springs are progressively wound but that does not make them a good performance spring.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHw3mWYgO6M

Dual springs with a good interference fit also do a good job of controlling harmonics but I am not a fan of cutting the heads for duals on a street car. I do like the fact that Clyde Berg does not cut away the guide boss inside the intake port, more support.

My advice, don't be obsessed too much with weight reduction at the cost of other important factors of train design. Yes reducing weight helps but there is no substitute for enough spring and a rev limiter.

Dan

Thu Mar 24, 2022 5:31 pm

Just read your post. Not familiar with and have never used the Oteva spring so I have no comment on them. I would like to see one.

Thu Mar 24, 2022 5:40 pm

Also, lots of lift makes more power to a point but the downside is shorter train life.

Thu Mar 24, 2022 6:16 pm

Tabari stocks the Oteva in the USA
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2504123

Thu Mar 24, 2022 8:28 pm

You can also run the outer spring of CB 650’s

Thu Mar 24, 2022 8:56 pm

I'm running the CB 650 outer springs with 0.511" lift. Not as much duration as a 86B but it has 245 at 0.050".
It's got 4000 miles on the FK-42 and I ran another 5000 miles with a W-100 cam and 1.37 rockers at .524" lift and 236 duration at.050". All with the CB 650 outers only.

Rev limit is usually around 5200 but does see as high as 5800 rpm.

Thu Mar 24, 2022 8:57 pm

Can the “beehives done right “ be used with 86b/Fk10 with Tims stage2 ? Or would the weekend warrior be a better choice?

Fri Mar 25, 2022 5:12 am

I ran singles on my 86b. Scat lifters, Smith bros pushrods, AA 1.4:1 rockers, 42x37 stainless valves and chromoly retainers. Nothing exotic at all. Installed @1.50" 111lbs @0.550” 263lbs

If memory serves me right I added an inner when I switched to an FK10 though.

Fri Mar 25, 2022 5:16 am

Pretty sure you’ll need the Weekend Warrior versions

fuguboy wrote: Can the “beehives done right “ be used with 86b/Fk10 with Tims stage2 ? Or would the weekend warrior be a better choice?

Fri Mar 25, 2022 5:19 am

For my 2276 I went with Logmech's Oteva 75 sc 1018 dual springs

http://logmech.se/eng/products/engine/valve-accessories/

Spring data art. 1018:
Pre load data art. 1018:
Total length: 58 mm
Outer diameter: 31.6 mm
Inner diameter: 17.3 mm
Solid spring: 21.8 mm
68 kg at 42 mm
81 kg at 39 mm
142 kg at 27 mm
140 kg at 25.4 mm

They work well with the 86b and seems to be a nice product .

Fri Mar 25, 2022 5:19 am

Pretty sure you’ll need the Weekend Warrior versions

fuguboy wrote: Can the “beehives done right “ be used with 86b/Fk10 with Tims stage2 ? Or would the weekend warrior be a better choice?

Fri Mar 25, 2022 5:22 am

fuguboy wrote: Can the “beehives done right “ be used with 86b/Fk10 with Tims stage2 ? Or would the weekend warrior be a better choice?
No. Too much lift.
Derrick, you will need the Oteva 1018´s. They are 260 @1" I forget the seat pressure. Stateside´s springs are nice in type 4 engines, not so interesting in type 1 engines due yo the total length hence too low seat pressure in many cases (That´s my opinion of course)
You will need the taper alu PR´s. The straight version will not handle the lift/spring pressure without flexing. (over time)
39 gr. lifters, taper pr´s like ACN´s or Pieper, Oteva 1018´s, 1,4 - 1,45 ratio along with a 44 mm type 1 Manley valve and Ti retainers will be sufficient to a hair over 7000 rpm. I would probably limit it to 6900-7000 to stay on the safe side.

Fri Mar 25, 2022 6:19 am

UK Luke 72 wrote: I ran singles on my 86b. Scat lifters, Smith bros pushrods, AA 1.4:1 rockers, 42x37 stainless valves and chromoly retainers. Nothing exotic at all. Installed @1.50" 111lbs @0.550” 263lbs

If memory serves me right I added an inner when I switched to an FK10 though.

Would that single be the W650 outer?

Fri Mar 25, 2022 7:41 am

fuguboy wrote: Can the “beehives done right “ be used with 86b/Fk10 with Tims stage2 ? Or would the weekend warrior be a better choice?

Alstrup is correct, in most cases the street spring is not enough for the cams your suggesting because of too much lift with most of the rockers available. If you can find rockers that really are 1.4 that would work, I have heard the Pauters really are 1.4 ratio. You could setup the street beehives with more installed height but then the seat pressure becomes too low.

You could also use the 1.3 rockers for about .500" lift which would work very well but the lower lift/ratio would leave a small amount of power on the table.

This is my reason for working with Webcam for the lower lift 252 grind, .366" lobe lift and available with 260, 266, and 272 @ 050" duration.

Progressively wound beehives also work best when squeezed tight, run them with .060" extra travel beyond max lift before coil bind. This will give maximum tension and more importantly control harmonics better and increase the coil stacking feature. Don't worry about the springs going limp from the tight installed, the extra coil will keep that from happening.

I am now finishing up a 2234cc engine to test both my manifold design and to try a spring arrangement setup idea I have. I will use the street spring on the exhaust and the warrior spring on the intake. The cam will be a dual pattern with the 252+3 on the intake and a 86a+6 on the exhaust. 266 intake and 262@ .050" on the exhaust. The lift will be, .550" for intake and .500" for exhaust. This way I will learn more about both springs in one engine. You really don't need as much lift for the smaller and lighter weight exhaust valve. The exhaust lift reduction should reduce exhaust guide wear as the exhaust runs hotter and does not lube itself as well as the intake. We will see.

I also agree with Alstrup about the pushrods. Standard straight 3/8" aluminum pushrods belong to mild builds and not with the cams we are talking about, they flex/deflect too much.

Fri Mar 25, 2022 1:12 pm

I assembled an engine with Comp Cam 26-125 beehive springs, FK44 cam, CB racemaster longer valves. It worked well when the engine was running.

I plan to swap the FK44 to a 86B when I'll finish working in the house, I may just have to add shims under springs.

Engine build can be seen in my signature.

Fri Mar 25, 2022 4:31 pm

I had stateside duals on my 2276 with raptor 008 which is almost same as an 86b. Recently had some work done on the heads and there was evidence of inner spring bounce. Springs were swapped out for something better.